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"Thomas Morris" married to Mary John 1844

Replies: 3

Re: "Thomas Morris" married to Mary John 1844

Posted: 3 Nov 2013 10:21AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello Kerry,

I’m not a descendant, but noticed in your “Scattered Leaves,” entries at Ancestry.com for Mary John, that you located the civil marriage index for her and Thomas Julian, showing that their marriage was recorded in the Kings Norton, Worcestershire, Registration District for the March quarter of 1853.

The Kings Norton Registration District recorded births, marriages, and deaths for certain towns and parishes in Staffordshire, Warwickshire, and Staffordshire, including Birmingham in Warwickshire.

See the following GenUKI link for confirmation: http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/kings%20norton....

You’ll notice in the GenUKI link that one of the other Warwickshire civil parishes located in the Kings Norton Registration District, was Edgabaston, Warwickshire. This is the parish where I found a 30 year old widow named Mary Morris in the 1851 census, working as a servant in the household of Attorney William John Beale and family, in an address of Westbourne Road. Mary Morris’s place of birth in the census is shown to be St. Melons Monmouthshire, which is the place of birth you have listed for her in your Scattered Leaves timeline.

The census does not show that any of Mary’s children are in the household with her, but that doesn’t mean that she didn’t have any children at the time. The 1851 census transcription for the Beale household follows. This transcription, as with the other census transcriptions you see in this reply, are from Ancestry.com:


1851 England Census

Civil Parish: Edgbaston
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address: Westbourne Road

Registration District: Kings Norton
Sub-registration District: Edgbaston
ED, institution, or vessel: 2g

Household Schedule Number: 41
Piece: 2049
Folio: 272
Page Number: 17

Name, Relation to Head of Household, Condition as to Marriage, Sex, Age, Occupation, Where Born

Wm Jno Beale, Head, Married, Male, 43, Attorney, St. Martins Birm
Martha Beale, Wife, Married, Female, 38, Birm Warwickshire
Elizh Sarah Beale, Daughter, Unmarried, Female, 12, Scholar, Edgbaston Warwickshire
Wm Phipson Beale, Son, Unmarried, Male, 11, Scholar, Edgbaston Warwickshire
Jas Saml Beale, Son, Unamrried, Male, 10, Scholar, Edgbaston Warwickshire
Chas Gabriel Beale, Son, Unmarried, Male, 7, Scholar, Edgbaston Warwickshire
Mary Emma Beale, Daughter, Unmarried, Female, 3, Edgbaston Warwickshire
Martha Dudley, Unmarried, Female, 30, Servant, Madeley Salop
Mary Morris, Widow, Female, 30, Servant, St. Melons Monmouthshire
Sarah Jane Prime, Unmarried, Female, 29, Servant, Aston Warwickshire
Esther Robinson, Unmarried, Female, 16, Servant, Tredington Worcestershire
Jane Hughes, Visitor, Unmarried, Female, 15, House Servant, Dundock Ireland

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2049; Folio: 272; Page: 17; GSU roll: 87459.
____


Information you supplied to the Ancestry.com general message board for Wales on 11 October 2013, notes that Thomas Morris and Mary John lived in Michaelston-y-fedw, which is in Monmouthshire.

I next wanted to see if perhaps any of Mary Morris’s children were still living in Michaelston-y-fedw, with grandparents, an uncle, an aunt, or a cousin. I went to the 1851 census for Monmouthsire, and found a 6 year old Mary Morris, living in the household of her grandparents, 70 year old William Morris, and William’s 57 year old wife Mary, in an address of Llanvedw Farm Near the Church, Michaelstone y Vedw, Monmouthshire. It appears the census spelled the parish as Michaelstone y Vedw, rather than Michaelstone y Fedw.

The census shows that Mary Morris was a scholar, or student, born in Llanvedw, Glamorgan, Wales. Her grandfather William Morris is shown to be a farmer with 86 acres of land who employed no labourers but his own sons. William was born in Machen, Monmouthshire, Wales. His wife Mary was born in Michaelstone y Vedw, Monmouthshire. William and Mary have 5 of their children in the household with them, all born in Michaelstone y Vedw, and all unmarried. These children are 30 year old Edward; 28 year old David; 25 year old Edmund; 21 year old Ann; and 19 year old George. All four sons are shown to be farm labourers, while daughter Ann was employed at home.

William and Mary Morris, I think, would be the deceased Thomas Morris’s parents.

The 1851 census is below:


1851 Wales Census

Civil Parish or Township: Michaelstone y Vedw
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales

Address: Llanvedw Farm Near the Church

Registration District: Newport
Sub-registration District: St Woollos
ED, institution, or vessel: 8

Piece: 2453
Folio: 118
Page Number: 8
Household Schedule Number: 29

Name, Relation to Head of Household, Condition as to Marriage, Sex, Age, Occupation, Where Born

William Morris, Head, Married, Male, 70, Farmer of 86 acres employing no labourers but his own sons, Monmouth Machen
Mary Morris, Wife, Married, Female, 57, Monmouth Michaelstone y Vedw
Edward Morris, Son, Unmarried, Male, 30, Farmers son employed on the farm, Monmouth Michaelstone y Vedw
David Morris, Son, Unmarried, Male, 28, Farmers son employed on the farm, Monmouth Michaelstone y Vedw
Edmund Morris, Son, Unmarried, Male, 25, Farmers son employed on the farm, Monmouth Michaelstone y Vedw
Ann Morris, Daughter, Unmarried, Female, 21, Farmers daughter employed at home, Monmouth Michaelstone y Vedw
George Morris, Son, Unmarried, Male, 19, Farmers son employed on the farm, Monmouth Michaelstone y Vedw
Mary Morris, Granddaughter, Female, 6, Scholar, Glamorgan Llanvedw

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2453; Folio: 118; Page: 8; GSU roll: 104194.
____


I then looked for William and Mary Morris in the 1861 census to see if their granddaughter Mary Morris was still in the household with them. I located the Morris family in the 1861 census, but William was deceased, as the census shows that 69 year old Mary Morris was a widow. Her occupation is farmer of 120 acres employing 4 men. The census shows that she was born in Michaelstone-Y-fedw. Her 16 year old granddaughter Mary Morris is also in the household. Mary’s occupation is milk maid. She was born in Lanvedow.

The census also shows the older Mary Morris had two of her own children in the household. These are 42 year old Edward and 29 year old George, both born in Michaelstone-Y-fedw. Also in the household is Mary’s grandson, 15 year old Edmund Morris, employed as a carter. He was born in what appears to be Coedcernew, Monmouthshire. The household also includes a servant, 36 year old Cecilia Rees, born in St. Bride’s, Monmouthshire.

I couldn’t make out the address of the Morris family from a copy of the original census return at Ancestry.com, except that they were living in Michaelston y Fedw:


1861 Wales Census

Name: Mary Morris

Civil Parish or Township: Michaelston y Fedw
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Address: ?

Registration District: Newport
Sub-registration District: St Woollos
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household Schedule Number: 55
Piece: 4024
Folio: 102
Page Number: 14

Name, Relation to Head of Household, Condition as to Marriage, Sex, Age, Occupation, Where Born

Mary Morris, Head, Widow, Female, 69, Farmer of 120 acres employing 4 men, Monmouthshire Michaelstone-Y-fedw
Edward Morris, Son, Unmarried, Male, 41, Monmouthshire Michaelstone-Y-fedw
George Morris, Son, Unmarried, Male, 29, Monmouthshire Michaelstone-Y-fedw
Mary Morris, Granddaughter, Unmarried, Female, 16, Dairy Maid, Glamorganshire Lanvedow
Edmund Morris, Grandson, Unmarried, Male, 15, Carter, Monmouthshire Coedcernew
Cecilia Rees, Servant, Unmarried, Female, 36, House Servant, Monmouthsire St. Brides

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 4024; Folio: 102; Page: 14; GSU roll: 543222.
____


Going to the 1871 census, I couldn’t identify either the younger or the older Mary Morris in that enumeration. The older Mary Morris could have died between the 1861 and 1871 census returns, while the younger Mary Morris could have married, emigrated, or died between 1861 and 1871.

I next went back in time to the 1841 census to see if I could find Thomas Morris in the household with his parents, William and Mary in Monmouthshire. I found 26 year old Thomas in the household with his 55 year old father William and 50 year old mother Mary in an address of Cottage, Michaelstone le Vedw. The 1841 census does not give as much information as future census enumerations. For example this census doesn’t list any occupation for Thomas, but it does show that his father William was a farmer. The 1841 census also does not pinpoint a specific town or parish of birth, but only if a person had been born in the county where the census took place. This is indicated by the word “Yes,” if a person were born in Monmouthshire.

The census shows that Thomas is the oldest child in the household. He is followed by 23 year old agricultural labourer (ag lab) William; 20 year old agricultural labourer Edward; 12 year old agricultural labourer Ann; and 9 year old George Morris. All in the household were born in Monmouthshire. The surname of the family in the census is spelled “Moris,” rather than Morris:


1841 Wales Census

Civil Parish: Michaelstone le Vedw
Hundred: Wentllooge (Upper Division)
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales

Address: Cottage
Registration District: Newport
Sub-registration District: St Woollos
Piece: 751
Book: 5
Folio: 5
Page Number: 4

Name, Age, Sex, Occupation, Whether Born in Same County, Whether Born in Scotland, Ireland, or Foreign Parts

William Moris, 55, Male, Farmer, Yes
Mary Moris, 50, Female, Yes
Thomas Moris, 26, Male, Yes
William Moris, 23, Male, Ag Lab, Yes
Edward Moris, 20, Male, Ag Lab, Yes
Ann Moris, 12, Female, Ag Lab, Yes
George Moris, 9, Male, Yes

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 751; Book: 5; Civil Parish: Michaelstone le Vedw; County: Monmouthshire; Enumeration District: 3; Folio: 5; Page: 4; Line: 16; GSU roll: 438847.
____


Next I wanted to see if I could find the baptism indexes for the children of William and Mary Morris. I located what I believe are baptism indexes for six of their children, all baptized in the Michaelston-y-Vedw, Monmouthshire Church of England. These indexes were found at the Latter Day Saints (LDS) Family Search website at: https://familysearch.org/search

Traditionally, Church of England baptism records do not include the maiden name of the mother of the children. The baptism indexes for the Morris children only give the first name of their mother.

The children in the baptism indexes, and their dates of baptism are:

Thomas Morris, 2 July 1815

Edward Morris, 7 January 1821

David Morris, 14 September 1823

Edmund Morris, 9 July 1827

Ann Morris, 5 November 1829

George Morris, 6 May 1832.


David and Edmund Morris are not in the 1841 census with their parents William and Mary, but can be found in the 1851 census with their parents.

The indexes follow:


Thomas Morris, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Thomas Morris
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 02 Jul 1815
Christening Place: MICHAELSTON-Y-VEDW,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: William Morris
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02446-1
System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104891 Item 2 = Bishop's transcripts for Michaelston-y-Vedw, 1696-1891:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1696-1697, 1725-1837; christenings and burials, 1837-1891.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKBR-QG9 : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Thomas Morris, 02 Jul 1815.
____


Edward Morris, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Edward Morris
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 07 Jan 1821
Christening Place: MICHAELSTON-Y-VEDW,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: William Morris
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02446-1
System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104891 Item 2 = Bishop's transcripts for Michaelston-y-Vedw, 1696-1891:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1696-1697, 1725-1837; christenings and burials, 1837-1891.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKBR-4Q8 : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Edward Morris, 07 Jan 1821.
____


David Morris, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: David Morris
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 14 Sep 1823
Christening Place: MICHAELSTON-Y-VEDW,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: William Morris
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02446-1
System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104891 Item 2 = Bishop's transcripts for Michaelston-y-Vedw, 1696-1891:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1696-1697, 1725-1837; christenings and burials, 1837-1891.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JQFR-5HQ : accessed 02 Nov 2013), David Morris, 14 Sep 1823.
____


Edmund Morris, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Edmund Morris
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 09 Jul 1827
Christening Place: MICHAELSTON-Y-VEDW,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: William Morris
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02446-1
System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104891 Item 2 = Bishop's transcripts for Michaelston-y-Vedw, 1696-1891:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1696-1697, 1725-1837; christenings and burials, 1837-1891.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JS57-VHC : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Edmund Morris, 09 Jul 1827.
____


Ann Morris, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Ann Morris
Gender: Female

Christening Date: 05 Nov 1829
Christening Place: MICHAELSTON-Y-VEDW,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: William Morris Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mary Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02446-1
System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104891 Item 2 = Bishop's transcripts for Michaelston-y-Vedw, 1696-1891:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1696-1697, 1725-1837; christenings and burials, 1837-1891.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKBR-3LF : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Ann Morris, 05 Nov 1829.
____


George Morris, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: George Morris
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 06 May 1832
Christening Place: MICHAELSTON-Y-VEDW,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: William Morris Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mary Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02446-1
System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104891 Item 2 = Bishop's transcripts for Michaelston-y-Vedw, 1696-1891:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1696-1697, 1725-1837; christenings and burials, 1837-1891.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKBR-HPJ : accessed 02 Nov 2013), George Morris, 06 May 1832.
____


Copies of the original baptism records for the Morris children can be found in GS microfilm number 104891 Item 2. This film records the Bishop's Transcripts for Michaelston-y-Vedw baptisms and marriages from the 17th century. The abbreviation “GS” stands for Genealogical Society of Utah, which is the historical name for the LDS. You can order the film from your nearest Family History Center. Also check with your local library, as some libraries are able to order LDS films for you for an extra charge.

I next uncovered the LDS marriage index for a William Morris and Mary Thomas. This index may refer to the parents of the Morris children in the baptisms above. The index shows that William and Mary were married in the Michaelston-y-Vedw Church of England on 21 February 1815. Their marriage record can also be found in GS microfilm number 104891 Item 2:


William Morris, "England Marriages, 1538–1973 "

Name: William Morris
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:

Spouse's Name: Mary Thomas
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:

Event Date: 21 Feb 1815
Event Place: Michaelstone-Y-Vedw, Monmouth, England

Father's Name:
Mother's Name:

Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:

Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:

Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M02446-2 System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 0104891 IT 2 Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104891 Item 2 = Bishop's transcripts for Michaelston-y-Vedw, 1696-1891:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1696-1697, 1725-1837; christenings and burials, 1837-1891.

Citing this Record
"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NK49-YYH : accessed 02 Nov 2013), William Morris and Mary Thomas, 21 Feb 1815.
____


Earlier you saw that Thomas Morris was baptized on 2 July 1815. If I have the correct family in all these LDS indexes, then William and Mary were married less than 5 months before Thomas was born, indicating they married when they did so that their first child would not be born out of wedlock.


THE JOHN FAMILY

While at the LDS website I found the marriage index for John John and Maria Morgan. The couple were married in the St. Pierre, Monmouthshire Church of England on 5 November 1814. Their marriage record can be found in GS microfilm number 2419403:


John John, "Wales, Monmouthshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912"

Name: John John
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 05 Nov 1814
Event Place: St Pierre, Monmouthshire, Wales
Age:
Birth Year (Estimated):

Spouse's Name: Maria Morgan
Digital Folder Number: 004394058
GS Film number: 2419403 = Parish registers of St. Pierre.
Marriages, v. 3, 1813-1840

Citing this Record
"Wales, Monmouthshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCTY-H2T : accessed 02 Nov 2013), John John and Maria Morgan, 1814.
____


Linked to the LDS index for the marriage of John John and Mary Morgan is the subscription based and pay-as-you-go website called Find My Past, where you can also access the marriage record for the couple. If you obtain the marriage record from Find My Past, you won’t have to order the GS microfilm noted in the index above.

The Find My Past link can be found at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/account/register-or-signin

The Church in St. Pierre is called St. Peter’s. To read more about St. Pierre and see a photo of St. Peter’s Church, go to the Wikipedia article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Pierre,_Monmouthshire

Further information about St. Pierre, Monmouthshire, can be found at the GenUKI link at:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/StPierre/

I next found what I believe may be the baptism index for John and Maria’s daughter, Mary John, who was baptized in the St. Mellons Church of England on 14 January 1821. In the baptism index Mary’s mother’s first name is spelled Mariah. Mary’s baptism record can be found in GS film number 104914 Item 3:


Mary John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Mary John
Gender: Female

Christening Date: 14 Jan 1821
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
:
Father's Name: John John Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mariah Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NY4K-SL6 : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Mary John, 14 Jan 1821.
____


I then found the St. Mellons Church of England baptism indexes for more children of a John and Maria/Mary/Mariah John. I can’t be sure all of these children were Mary’s siblings, as there may have been more than one household in the area where the parents were John and Mary John. For instance, one baptism index shows that a Blanch John was baptized in St. Mellons on 25 April 1815, while another index shows that an Edward John was baptized in St. Mellons on 5 July 1815. There is the possibility these children were twins but could not be baptized together because Edward may have been too sickly to attend the baptism with his sister Blanch. On the other hand there is the possibility the two children did not share the same parents.

But, I’ve included all the St. Mellons baptism indexes I could find for the children of John and Mary John. You may know if these children pertain to Mary’s siblings as you are more familiar with the John family history than I am.

Including the baptism for Mary there are 9 indexes. These include the aforementioned Mary, Blanch and Edward, plus:


Thomas, 29 October 1816

Anne, 25 April 1819

John, 8 June 1823

William, 20 March 1825

Edward, 5 November 1827

Margaret, 20 October 1828

The indexes also shows that the Edward John baptized in 1827 died shortly after his birth, and that Margaret John also died not long after she was born. I’ve included the St. Mellons burial indexes for these children as well. I’ve also included the 1821 baptism index for Mary John again so that you can see the full chronology of all the John baptisms:


Blanch John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Blanch John
Gender: Female

Christening Date: 25 Apr 1815
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: John John Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Maria Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JWMP-65P : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Blanch John, 25 Apr 1815.
____


Edward John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Edward John
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 05 Jul 1815
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: John John Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mary Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NY4K-3RS : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Edward John, 05 Jul 1815.
____


Thomas John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Thomas John
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 29 Oct 1816
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: John John Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mariah Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NK19-GBV : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Thomas John, 29 Oct 1816.
____


Anne John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Anne John
Gender: Female

Christening Date: 25 Apr 1819
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: John John Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mariah Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JWMP-6P1 : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Anne John, 25 Apr 1819.
____


Mary John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Mary John
Gender: Female

Christening Date: 14 Jan 1821
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: John John Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mariah Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NY4K-SL6 : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Mary John, 14 Jan 1821.
____


John John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: John John
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 08 Jun 1823
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: John John Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mariah Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N1TP-R2R : accessed 02 Nov 2013), John John, 08 Jun 1823.
____


William John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: William John
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 20 Mar 1825
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:

Father's Name: John John Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mariah Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NK19-PG4 : accessed 02 Nov 2013), William John, 20 Mar 1825.
____


Edward John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Edward John
Gender: Male

Christening Date: 05 Nov 1827
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:

Death Date: 16 Nov 1827

Father's Name: John John
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mariah Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NY4K-3R7 : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Edward John, 05 Nov 1827.


AND


Edward John, "Wales, Monmouthshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912"
Name: Edward John

Event Type: Burial
Event Date: 16 Nov 1827
Event Place: St Mellon's, Monmouthshire, Wales
Age: 0
Birth Year (Estimated): 1827

Spouse's Name:

Digital Folder Number: 004393257

GS Film number: 2419405 Item 26 = Parish registers of St. Mellons:
Burials, Vol. 4, 1813-April 8, 1874.

Citing this Record
"Wales, Monmouthshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCTJ-XXN : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Edward John, 1827.
____


Margaret John, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Margaret John
Gender: Female

Christening Date: 20 Oct 1828
Christening Place: ST MELLONS,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND

Birth Date:
Birthplace:

Death Date: 25 Oct 1828

Father's Name: John John
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:

Mother's Name: Mary Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02399-1 System Origin: England-ODM Reference ID:

GS Film number: 104914 Item 3 = Bishop's transcripts for St. Mellons:
Christenings, marriages and burials, 1725-1837,
marriages, 1838-1843 and christenings and burials, 1837-1869.

Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NK19-2TY : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Margaret John, 20 Oct 1828.


AND


Margaret John, "Wales, Monmouthshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912"

Name: Margaret John

Event Type: Burial
Event Date: 25 Oct 1828
Event Place: St Mellon's, Monmouthshire, Wales
Age: 0
Birth Year (Estimated): 1828

Spouse's Name:
Digital Folder Number: 004393257
GS Film number: 2419405 Item 26 = Parish registers of St. Mellons:
Burials, Vol. 4, 1813-April 8, 1874.

Citing this Record
"Wales, Monmouthshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCTJ-XXR : accessed 02 Nov 2013), Margaret John, 1828.
____


The burial records for Edward John and Margaret John can be found in GS microfilm number 2419405 Item 26.

Indications from the baptism indexes are that John and Maria John had two sons named Edward, one baptized in 1815 and the second Edward in 1827. Both Edwards did not live into adulthood.

For information about the District of St. Mellons and a photo of the St. Mellons Church, go to the Wikipedia link at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mellons

I notice from your Scattered Leaves submissions at Ancestry.com that you found John and Maria Johns in the 1841 and 1851 census returns for St. Mellons, Monmouthshire. John and Maria’s daughter Mary is not in the 1841 census, though a girl named Cecil Morris is in the household with John and Maria in both the 1841 and 1851 enumerations. I agree with you Kelly that Cecil may be the daughter of Thomas Morris and Mary John Morris. I also agree that Cecil was probably Cecilia. Her age in the 1841 and 1851 census returns indicate she would have been born in either 1840 or 1841, that is, if her age is accurate in both those enumerations.

I wanted to see if I could find a birth index for a Cecil or a Cecilia Morris for the 1840-1841 time period in Monmouthshire. I located the birth index for a Cecilia Morris at the FreeBMD which shows her birth recorded in the Newport (Monmouthshire) Registration District for the March quarter of 1841.

The FreeBMD homepage can be found at: http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

A transcription of the birth index for Cecilia Morris follows:


Birth March Quarter 1841

Cecilia Morris

Registration District: Newport

Volume: 26

Page: 88
____


Birth records today are held by the General Register Office (GRO) in Southport, England. You can order Cecilia’s birth record online from the GRO website link at: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

Her birth record can be found in Volume 26, Page 88 of the GRO registers.

Birth records traditionally give the first and last name of the father and the first and maiden name of the mother. But, if Cecilia had been born out of wedlock, I’m not sure if her father’s name will be listed on the birth certificate. You would have to order the birth certificate to find out.


CONCLUSION

Kerry, it would appear from the census returns that Mary John Morris Julian had left two children behind when she sailed for Australia in 1857. These children would be Mary Morris, who is found living in the household of her grandparents, William and Mary Morris in the 1851 census, and her grandmother Mary Morris in the1861 census. By 1861 William Morris was deceased, as the older Mary Morris is shown to be a widow.

The other child is Cecil Morris, who is found living in the household of her grandparents John and Maria Johns in the 1841 and 1851 census enumerations in Monmouthshire..

While it may appear that Mary Morris and Cecil Morris were Mary John Morris’s children, I didn’t find direct proof that they were. Only circumstantial evidence from the census returns indicate they may have been her children.

Speaking of Cecil Morris, I may have found her in the 1861 census, but in this enumeration she is married to 25 year old Joseph Evans. The 1861 census shows that Mary, who is 20 years old, and her husband Joseph, are living in an address that appears to be Lower Board, Private House, St Mellon, Monmouthshire. The 1861 census shows that Cecilia was born in St. Mellons, while the 1851 census had shown that she was born in Lisvane, but living in the Civil Parish of St. Mellons, and so it’s possible the 1861 census refers to her.

The 1861 census further shows that Joseph Evans is a shoemaker who was born in St. Mellons. In the household with Joseph and Cecilia is their 8 month old child, Maria Evans, born in St. Mellons.

The census transcription follows:


1861 Wales Census

Civil Parish or Township: St Mellon
Ecclesiastical parish: Llandaff
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales

Address: Lower Board, Private House
Registration District: Cardiff
Sub-registration District: Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Household Schedule Number: 39
Piece: 4040
Folio: 77
Page Number: 11

Name, Relation to Head of Household, Condition as to Marriage, Sex, Age, Occupation, Where Born

Joseph Evans, Head, Married, Male, 25, Shoemaker, Monmouthshire St. Mellons
Cecilia Evans, Wife, Married, Female, 20, Monmouthshire St. Mellons
Maria Evans, Daughter, Unmarried, Female, 8 months, Monmouthshire St. Mellons

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 4040; Folio: 77; Page: 11; GSU roll: 543225.
____


I next found circumstantial evidence for the marriage of Joseph Evans and Cecilia Morris in the form of a GRO marriage index uncovered at the FreeBMD website. This index shows that the marriage of four people was recorded in the Cardiff Registration District for the June quarter of 1858. The four people in the index, listed alphabetically by their last names are Joseph Evans, Thomas Humphrey, Cecilia Morris, and Sarah Stanfield:


Marriages June Quarter 1858

Joseph Evans
Thomas Humphrey
Cecilia Morris
Sarah Stanfield

Registration District: Cardiff

Volume: 11a

Page: 363
____


You would have to order the marriage record from the GRO (Volume 11a, Page 363) to confirm that Joseph Evans had married Cecilia Morris. Civil marriage records include the names and the occupations of the fathers of the groom and bride.

Lisvane and St. Mellons are only a few miles from each other, as you will see on a Google Map, which you can access at: http://tinyurl.com/p7c8mtt

The link above shows the location of Lisvane on the map. In the upper left corner of the page, off the map, you’ll see a prompt highlighted in blue labeled, “Directions.” Click on Directions and in the drop-down box labeled A, type, “St Mellons, United Kingdom,” and then click on “Get Directions.”

The next map that appears shows that the distance from Lisvane to St. Mellons along the B4562 road, is only 4.1 miles, or about a 12 minute ride by motor car.

The 1851 census notes that Cecil Morris was born in Lisvane, Glamorgan, but this area of Wales is on the border with Monmouthshire, and so you can see why it’s possible that Cecilia Evans, in the 1861 census, had noted she was born in St. Mellons, Monmouthshire, only a few miles from Lisvane, Glamorganshire.


Best of Luck with your research Kerry.

Dave Boylan
SubjectAuthorDate Posted
kerryat2008 12 Oct 2013 5:54AM GMT 
DaveBoylan 3 Nov 2013 5:21PM GMT 
kerryat2008 6 Nov 2013 11:50PM GMT 
DaveBoylan 7 Nov 2013 12:21AM GMT 
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