Bay - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Re: Bay - From Ireland, to USA (Missouri), to Mexico

enriquebay1 — 2013-05-06 01:03:22Z

Hi Rick, as "good2cu" said, ours is Samuel Mansfield Bay (actually from 1811-1849). good2cu, thanks so so so much for that information about Tomas Bay! I was trying to figure it out for a long time, because I saw he had many children and crossed the border with different wives, now I know why =)

The Alejo you mention (your grandfather's half-brother) was my great-grandfather.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejo_Bay

The Alejo you shared on Twitter, is my cousin (great-grandson of your grandfather's half-brother Alejo).

I don't know a lot about the Cordell's, but I can tell you with a lot of confidence that Samuel Bay's parents were Thomas Bay (1779 - 1836) and Harriet Mansfield. I know a lot more of the line, and I'd be happy to share it. With the help of Tom (not our relative, but has kindly helped me trace the line) I have gone all the way back to our ancestors from France.

I would love knowing more about Tomas. I know he was a confederate soldier, but would like to know why/how/when he went to Mexico. That decision plays a big deal in my life =)

Bay central Pennsylvania

rharding57 — 2013-05-01 11:05:57Z

Looking for information about Susanah Bay, William Bay and Henry Bay. Born about 1772,1827,1832. Grandmother and grandsons I think. 1850 census in Luzerne Co., Pa. with William Ely family. Cannot find anything before or after. I think they are related to William's wife, Mary. Thanks.

Re: Bay - From Ireland, to USA (Missouri), to Mexico

good2cu — 2013-04-30 04:24:13Z

Rick, I'm pretty sure ours is (Gen.) Samuel Mansfield Bay, he was married to Virginia Cordell, great, great, great grandmother.

Re: Bay - From Ireland, to USA (Missouri), to Mexico

FredricZS — 2013-04-30 03:07:02Z

Thank you. Yes, the one that married Virginia Cordell is Samuel Mansfield Bay (1810-1849). By chance have any male Bay members from this line y-DNA tested? It would be interesting to know if they are related (even if distantly) to the other Bay line in the area. See my page below for members of that line (not yours) that have DNA tested.
http://home.netcom.com/~fzsaund/baydna.html

Rick Saunders

Re: Bay - From Ireland, to USA (Missouri), to Mexico

good2cu — 2013-04-30 03:00:16Z

Ok, so my mom is a wealth of information...down to the gossip of those days!! Thomas Presley Bay is the son
Samuel Mansfield Bay and Virginia Cordell. There was another Samuel Mansfield who may have been the father of this Samuel Mansfield.

My mother says that Thomas Presley Bay had 3 wives, one in the U.S. (Ramona) and the latter two were in Mexico: (Albina Valenzuela and Herlinda Acosta). As it turns out, Herlinda and Albina were cousins. Thomas married Herlinda after Albina died. This marriage was at the request of Albina, because she didn't want Thomas to marry some a strange woman who might mistreat her children. By then, he was in his 70's when he married Herlinda (in her late 20's)

Thomas Presley Bay and Albina had Samuel, Francisco, Thomas Presley Jr., Rubén, Albina, Lucrecia, Alejo (your grandfather) and Virgina. (8 Children)

With Herlinda Acosta he had Hernesto, Arnoldo (my grandfather) and Sarah Bay (died at 15). (3 children)

I found a new Alejo Bay in Hermosillo, you might try contacting him on Twitter (https://twitter.com/BayAlejo)

Tom, I think our Bay's are from one of the Samuel Mansfield Bays. Although, we may also share a gene or two, as the Bays were somewhat prolific.

Hope this helps everyone! I hope others can pitch in. I'd like to know more about the Cordells.

Re: Bay - From Ireland, to USA (Missouri), to Mexico

good2cu — 2013-04-30 00:09:40Z

Sounds fascinating! I'll send you an email.

Re: Bay - From Ireland, to USA (Missouri), to Mexico

FredricZS — 2013-04-29 23:02:45Z

Are you from Samuel Mansfield Bay (1810-1849)or from Samuel Bay (b. ca. 1780-1784; m. Sarah Musick)? The latter is a brother to my ancestor Robert Bay of Franklin Co., MO.
http://home.netcom.com/~fzsaund/bay.html

A lot of researchers have mistakenly confused the latter Samuel (b. 1789-84) with Samuel Mansfield Bay. Samuel (b. 1780-1784) had no middle name.

Rick Saunders

Re: Bay - From Ireland, to USA (Missouri), to Mexico

enriquebay1 — 2013-04-29 19:32:56Z

Hello Christine, I'd be very happy to get in touch. I also can share a lot of findings from Samuel Mansfield Bay (your grandfather's grandfather). Please send me an email to enriquebay@gmail.com . Thank you!

Re: Bay - From Ireland, to USA (Missouri), to Mexico

enriquebay1 — 2013-04-29 19:32:47Z

Re: Bay - From Ireland, to USA (Missouri), to Mexico

good2cu — 2013-04-29 16:57:13Z

Hello, I may be able to help. I don't know how old this thread is, but I think it's not too late. I am the daughter of Maria A Bay, she is the daughter of Arnoldo Bay who is the brother of Alejo Bay. She knows almost the entire Bay history, she still lives in Alamos, Sonora where the family settled in Mexico. If you would like to compare notes, I'll be happy to provide as much information as I can. I am Christine Miller Bay, San Diego, CA.

Re: David Bay, Co. M, Illinois 4th Cavalry

Fundy52 — 2013-04-14 22:42:44Z

See the reply from Frederic---mightt be a match

Re: David Bay born 1809 Ohio

Fundy52 — 2013-04-14 22:39:50Z

From what I can tell from the Dr. Tommy West book index, the David Bay you mention (marrried to Mary Robinson and Mary Newman) died in 1893. My David died while in Civil War service. But thanks---I had forgotten about this source book so will try to review it more closely for clues.

Re: David Bay born 1809 Ohio

FredricZS — 2013-04-14 22:07:39Z

Are you referring to David Bay who married 10 December 1829 to Mary Robinson,and then on 22 June 1837 (both in Allen County, Indiana) to Mary Ann Newman?

Tommy L. West, _Some Members of the 18th Century Colonial American Bay Family (Baltimore, Maryland: Gateway Press, Inc., 2004), identifies him as the son of James Bay.

Specifically, James and his son William are in 1820 Shelby County, Ohio. William's War of 1812 pension file lists an affidavit of Horney Robinson in support of the widow's claim $43726. It was stated that he knew William Bay and his brothers John, David, Joseph and his sister Ibbie.

James is the James born ca. 1766 on my page:
http://home.netcom.com/~fzsaund/bay.html

Rick Saunders

Re: David Bay, Co. M, Illinois 4th Cavalry

Davidson_Berna — 2013-04-14 21:44:05Z

I have a David William Bay born 1809 in Ohio. Have been looking for ancestors for him. my email is davidsonberna@msn.com.

Re: David Bay, Co. M, Illinois 4th Cavalry

Fundy52 — 2013-04-12 23:53:23Z

Thanks for the comment---something to look into though my first thought is that the David you mention seems like he could be a bit old to have served in the Civil War as a private (though I suppose there were plenty of men who did.).

I am descended from Robert Bay's daughter Mary Jane who I believe was a half sister of your Russell.

Re: David Bay, Co. M, Illinois 4th Cavalry

DonBay35 — 2013-04-10 01:12:06Z

My gggrandfather was Russell B. Bay. He had an older brother Named David S. Bay. Both were born in Champaign County, Ohio. David married Delila Scott on 6 June 1850 in Wapello County, Iowa. His first wife was Jane Robinson & they married 18 October 1838 in Warren County, Illinois where this Bay family lived at the time. She passed 31 August 1847 and is buried at Berwick Cemetery, Warren County,Illinois. David's children was John M.,Joseph Scott,Mary E., and Samuel L.They are on the 1850 Fed Census Des Moine, Iowa. Father was Robert Bay,mother was Mary McCann. Russel returned to Warren County, Illinois and David also left Iowa but I have never located he and family on any census after 1850. I cannot tell you that this is the David that you have queried. Don Bay

David Bay, Co. M, Illinois 4th Cavalry

Fundy52 — 2013-04-03 00:03:28Z

David Bay served in the above military unit during the Civil War. He died of disease in Cincinnati, Ohio on March 28, 1862 and is buried in Spring Grove Cemetery in Cincinnati. Records indicate that he was from Green River IL which I believe is/was an unincorporated area of Henry Co., IL.
While I do have a Bay line in my family history, I have not been able to place where this David falls in the family. Can anyone help with his parentage?

Lewis Edward Bay - Fairfield County, Ohio

Contribution — 2013-01-08 13:48:08Z

LANCASTER: Lewis Edward Bay 84 of Lancaster, Ohio went to be with his Lord and Savior on Sunday, January 6, 2013 at Fairfield Medical Center.

He was born on August 1, 1928 in Fairfield County, Ohio to the late Eugene and Gertrude Bay.

Lewis was a Korean conflict veteran serving in the US Army and retired from Anchor Hocking Glass Corp. Plant 1 with 42 years of service.
He was a member of the Sugar Grove United Methodist Church for 57 years.

He is survived by his wife of 57 years, Betty Jackson Bay; children, Danny (Jo Ann) Holcomb, Cheryl (Dan) Burrows and Peggy (Bill) Roach; grandchildren, Amber (Jason) Gloyd, Brandi (Dion) Troiano and Kelly Ireton; great-grandchildren, Steven (Kristy), Jordan, Alyssa and Andrew; great-great grandson, Jacob; brothers, Bill (Helen) Bay and Ralph Bay; sister, Madeline Bay; numerous nieces and nephews.

He was preceded in death by his parents, brothers, Robert and Valley Bay, sisters, Frieda Williams, Naomi (Joe) Murdock, Virginia (Joe) Tatman, Lucille (Paul) Tatman, Marie (Percy) Armstrong, Erma (Fred) Arent and Betty (Bob) Jordan and grandson, Steven Glenn, II.

A graveside service will be held Wednesday at 1:30 p.m. at Stukey Cemetery, Sugar Grove, Ohio with Rev. Kandyse Nuce officiating.
Arrangements are being handled by the FRANK E. SMITH FUNERAL HOME, 405 N. COLLUMBUS ST., LANCASTER, OHIO 43130.

Memorial gifts may be given to the Sugar Grove United Methodist Church, 406 East St., PO Box 101, Sugar Grove, Ohio 43155.

To send an online condolence, and sign the guest book, please visit www.funeralhome.com

Re: Walter Bay d. 1912

DonBay35 — 2012-09-20 17:13:12Z

THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO PASS THIS ON. THERE IS NO WALTER IN MY BAY HISTORY HOWEVER. DON BAY

Walter Bay d. 1912

cat2397 — 2012-09-19 04:16:45Z

I am not related to this person, his obituary appeared in the "100 Years Ago Today" column in the North Vernon (IN) Plain Dealer on 8/27/2012 for Aug. 22, 1912. I thought it might be of help to someone.

Walter Bay, 49, died at his home at Indianapolis Monday and the remains were brought to this city for burial Wednesday. He is survived by his wife and one daughter, Mrs. Joe Harrington. The deceased was a resident of this city until about two years ago when he moved his family to Indianapolis.

carrie bay

maryllnewton72 — 2012-07-12 19:25:05Z

i was told by a cousin that carrie bay or day married george washington hudson and it in my family line. brother probaby george hudson born in 1858. george hudson is my greatgraandfather. if any has info please let me know. thank you.

Re: Leslie Edwin Bay

jsard124 — 2012-03-13 17:13:04Z

I would like to see exactly what you have on your tree. Is it possible for me to have access to your tree on ancestry.com? At least from Leslie back? I keep coming up with a second generation David Bay that leads to the James Hugh Bay and Jane McCann. Where did I take the wrong turn? So glad long lost cousins can find each other!

Re: Leslie Edwin Bay

DonBay35 — 2012-03-13 17:07:07Z

Note the response by Z.Fredric Saunders. I was going to refer you to his comments on the Ancestry Bay Forum knowing that you can "take his research to the bank". He straightened me out regarding the erroneous "James" Hugh Bay Name some years ago. If I can help you with our immediate family please write to my email address. I have group photo's that I can email to you showing your grandfather Leslie along with my grandfather Arthur and our great grandfather Lyman Roswell Bay.

Hugh Bay

FredricZS — 2012-03-13 04:08:21Z

There are no records of Hugh Bay having a first name James. Records also show his wife was named Mary [last name unknown]. There are no McCANNs found living near the family until in the 1790s in KY, so it is unlikely that Hugh BAY's wife was a McCANN.
http://home.netcom.com/~fzsaund/bay.html

I also doubt that the family was from Devon or Wales. (Devon and Wales and two different areas, and Devon is part of England). The BAY family DNA haplogroup is found almost exclusively in Great Britain, and mostly in Scotland and Ireland. They were members of the Presbyterian Church in VA, which would also suggest a Scots-Irish ancestry.

Re: Leslie Edwin Bay

jsard124 — 2012-03-13 02:29:23Z

Thanks for your reply. It is wonderful that you visited the graves in Coalgate. If I've done things correctly, I've gotten as far back as James Hugh Bay, born in Devon Wales, England married to Jane McCann born in Tyrone Northern Ireland in 1730. Would love to know if that is what you have and if I have followed the right track.

Re: Leslie Edwin Bay

DonBay35 — 2012-03-12 17:19:58Z

My grandfather was Arthur Roswell Bay, brother to your Leslie Edwin Bay. I visited Leslie & Cora's grave's 3 or 4 years ago. I have extensive research of the Bay's going back to 1650. My email address is marydon@onemain.com. I spoke with Gary Murray by telephone sometime back and also Muriel. Your father was alive at the time but was in poor health. You can write to me to my email address.

Don Bay

Re: Leslie Edwin Bay

jsard124 — 2012-03-11 22:55:54Z

I'm fairly new to this ancestry site and saw this old message from you. Leslie Edwin Bay was my grandfather. He was married to Cora Cummins. They had 2 children, Mary Elizabeth and John Leslie. John was my father (deceased, May 2010) I have gone back as far as Lymn Roswell Bay. If you have any information prior to that, I would appreciate. The Murray you mentioned is probably my nephew.

Re: Bay family From Oklahoma or Missouri

jclmaster1 — 2012-02-29 06:03:45Z

My Grandfather's name was Robert Edmond Bay. His father's name was Lloyd Bay. They were from the Mtn. View Mo area.

Re: Bay family From Oklahoma or Missouri

blessmebay — 2012-02-29 01:48:55Z

hello my name is sharyn lynne bay. father is eugene monore bay his fathers name was lloyd m bay. they are from missouri. i have jus started looking into my background, and really don't know what i am doing. my email addr is blessdmebay@aol.com. One of the family tales, is that we are osage indian.

Jim Bay of Anderson, TX 1926

drbrownlee — 2011-10-22 22:18:43Z

Jim is pictured in the 1926 Alcalde, yearbook of Sam Houston State Teachers College of Huntsville, Texas, and is a freshman. I'm not kin but thought this might be helpful to someone researching the family.

Re: Margaret & Mary Bay 1700's Rockbridge Co, Va

agoldsborough1 — 2011-09-01 21:06:43Z

Hello - Yes, I have the same information as you gave, but I am still lacking any information on the ancestors of Margaret Bay. If you come across anything on the Bay generations before Margaret, please let me know.

Thanks,
Ann

Re: Margaret & Mary Bay 1700's Rockbridge Co, Va

rmont190 — 2011-08-30 15:01:34Z

This Bay and Johnston family ties into the Montgomery family of early Rockbridge County, Virginia. So far I have not figured out what the exact family connection was, but they all seem to have migrated from Pennsylvania into the Rockbridge area of Virginia around the same time. Humphrey Montgomery of Pennsylvania (possibly Lancaster, maybe Cumberland or Bedford) moved to Rockbridge, Virginia, likely with some brothers or cousins, and married Jean Gay 13 February 1779 @ Rockbridge. His daughter, also Jean or Jane, married James Johnston, son of James and Margaret Bay Johnston, 17 December 1808 @ Rockbridge, Virginia. There is very much more intrigue about these families which I would rather not share on an open forum board, but if you would like to know more details you can message me here or send along an email (preferred) to rmont@atlanticbb.net

I am still trying to figure out the Bay's before Margaret.

http://botetourtroots.org/index.php

Re: William Bay (1895-1988); Astoria Oregon

juhani_kaisanlahti — 2011-08-28 12:46:53Z

Refering to my earlier mail I believe that William Bay changed his surname from Kaisalahti to Bay, because it is direct tranlation Finnish-English. The first Kaisalahti moved to America from Finland in 1882, he was Petter (his wife was finnish too) Kaisalahti and I suppose that William was his son. So Petter was the first from our family tree in USA.

Re: William Bay (1895-1988); Astoria Oregon

Davidson_Berna — 2011-08-26 02:15:12Z

Do you know if Kaisalahti Bay had brothers? I am looking for mother and father for David William Bay, born in 1809.

Re: William Bay (1895-1988); Astoria Oregon

juhani_kaisanlahti — 2011-08-25 21:04:58Z

Uncle of my farther was Johan Petter Kaisalahti (born 30.11.1856), who moved to America in 1882. He and his spouse (Matilda) had two children Juho William and Wiini Marja. Juho Petter died in 1884 in mine accident. We haven't heard anything else about Petter and his followers after that. If this matches with your data about Kaisalahti it would be interesting to know more about Kaisalahti family tree in USA. I'm the chairman of Kaisanlahti society in Finland (we use n in the middle).

Re: Margaret & Mary Bay 1700's Rockbridge Co, Va

agoldsborough1 — 2011-07-19 20:07:29Z

Hi,

Yes, I have my family tree on ancestry, but it's private. I'll email you.

Re: Margaret & Mary Bay 1700's Rockbridge Co, Va

dshillo1 — 2011-07-19 19:23:25Z

Very exciting to find you. Do you have a tree on Ancestry?
you can reach me by email dshillo@gmail.com. The Bay, Bey family is a puzzle I just started working on. I do not have the branch of my family on Ancestry yet as it is so large.

Re: Margaret & Mary Bay 1700's Rockbridge Co, Va

agoldsborough1 — 2011-07-19 18:21:19Z

I am related to Margaret Bay born 1761. She is my fourth great grandmother. She married James Johnston, Sr. in 1776 and had thirteen children, nine sons and four daughters. They lived in Rockbridge County, Virginia. My line is thru her son James M. Johnston(1780-1835), his son Robert Johnston, Sr.(1818-1885), his daughter Sallie Perry Johnston(1877-1942), and her daughter Juliet North Proctor who was my father's mother.

Unfortunately, I don't know anything more about her, but would be interested in any additional information or documentation of the Bay family.

Re: Oct 4 1821 death of THOMAS BAY in Ohio

thomasbay95 — 2011-07-12 15:45:44Z

Berna, This Thomas Bay not likely father of a son born in 1809 since he would have been about 62 by then. Not much really known about his son David named in his will. Incidentally, birthplace of your guy is thought to be Piqua in Miami county, Ohio, not Pickaway County south of Columbus.

Re: Oct 4 1821 death of THOMAS BAY in Ohio

FredricZS — 2011-07-09 16:11:55Z

I have a copy of his will from Jefferson Co., Ohio wills 2:10, FHL Microfilm 900044. This is the one who married Charity (she died before him).

21 June 1821 Thomas Bay of Ross Twp., Jefferson Co., Ohio.
To two daughters Elizabeth and Martha each a feather bed and bedding and all kitchen furniture to be equally divided between them. Elizabeth to have one cow, the choice of my cattle, four sheep and all her clothing.

Son [strike through of phrase "David all my farming utensils"] Thomas my present mare, 1 cow, four sheep and all carpenter tools.

Son David all my farming utensils.

Grand child John Bay, son of Hugh Bay 2 sheep.

Son James one steer calf now at Joseph Reeds.

Son William to be completely released from the payment of the contents of an article I hold on him dated 20 March 1820 and he shall not be bound to return the mare therein mentioned.

All movable to be divided into 12 equal portions which shall be disposed of in manner here after named: to Grand son Thomas Bay son of William Bay one half portion. To son Hugh Bay one portion. To daughter Elizabeth Bay two portions. Son James Bay two portions. Daughter Martha Bruce one half portion. Daughter Mary one portion. Son David one and half portions. Son Thomas two portions. Grandsons Jesse & Harvey sons of my daughter Elizabeth one half portion each which when collected to be put to interest and the interest applied to schooling or clothing until age 21 when their half portions are to be paid. To David Reed, son of Joseph Reed one half portion [no relation stated].

Mordecai Moore and Thomas George executors.
Wit: Joseph Reed, Rebecca Reed.

Proved 17 Dec. 1821.

Re: Oct 4 1821 death of THOMAS BAY in Ohio

Davidson_Berna — 2011-07-09 15:32:56Z

Wouldn't that be wonderful to find something after all this time! If you find anything, please let me know.

Re: Oct 4 1821 death of THOMAS BAY in Ohio

Davidson_Berna — 2011-07-09 15:30:03Z

Thanks very much for the information. There were two Thomas Bay in that area, and I am looking for information on the one that was married to Charity (?). Mainly a list of the children so I can see if this is elusive father of David William Bay.

Re: Lavina Bay m. Issac Noel Fouts

TrudySpanier23 — 2011-07-08 23:34:52Z

Lavina Elizabeth BAY born Burr Oak Twp, Doniphan County, Kansas married Jan 1, 1874 Rockford Twp, Pottawattamie Co, Iowa to your Isaac Noel FOUTS. I have her obit and was in touch a few years ago with a living relative. She is buried in Woodbine Cemetery, Boyer Twp. Harrison Co, Iowa. Do you have her death certificate? I think I even have a picture of her father John M. Bay. This is my direct line... Her mother SARAH JUMP POINTS daughter of William POINTS and Sarah JUMP. Her father JOHN M. BAY son of David Bay and Mary Ann Robinson.

Re: Lavina Bay m. Issac Noel Fouts

TrudySpanier23 — 2011-07-08 23:33:46Z

Lavina Elizabeth Bay 24 Jul 1856 b. Burr Oak Twp, Doniphan County, Kansas. Daughter of John M. Bay and Sarah Jump Points. Siblings-Delilah Jane, Lucretia, Sarah Ann, Caroline, William D., Minnie, Frankie & Katie. I am related thru John M. Bays parents. I have pictures of both & one of Caroline. Can you contact me?

Re: Lavina Bay m. Issac Noel Fouts

TrudySpanier23 — 2011-07-08 23:33:03Z

I have information on these people. Lavina BAY is one of my family tree. Lavina daughter of John M. BAY and Sarah Jump POINTS

1904 obituary of William Bay of La Grande, Oregon

midge1249 — 2011-07-08 15:38:49Z

From the Oregonian of February 25, 1904 (page 5)

WILLIAM BAY, OF LA GRANDE

LA GRANDE, Feb. 22 - (special) - William Bay died in La Grande Monday, February 22, after an extended illness, aged 74 years. He was a highly respected pioneer of this valley, having resided here for over 30 years He leaves a wife and six children, as follows: David Bay, Mrs. Susan Robertson, Mrs C.D. Goodnough, John Bay and Mrs. Issle(?) Winkler, all of this city, and Mrs. Emma Grant, who resides in Kansas.

1912 article re David Bay, Pioneer of La Grande

midge1249 — 2011-07-08 15:25:54Z

From the Oregonian of Oct 31, 1812 (page 11)

DAVID BAY RETURNS TO PORTLAND.---- David Bay, a pioneer resident of La Grande, returned to Portland yesterday after a brief visit to his former home, his return being hastened by an attack of illness caused by the higher altitude at La Grande. Mr. Bay live at La Grande for about 45 years, and moved to Portland a year ago as the climate of the Willamette Valley agrees with him better, but he likes to return to the Grand Ronde Valley for visits.

Re: Oct 4 1821 death of THOMAS BAY in Ohio

midge1249 — 2011-07-08 14:34:44Z

I belong to a number of old newspaper sites. This one is at www.genealogybank.com and the other good one is at www.newspaperarchive.com

Re: Oct 4 1821 death of THOMAS BAY in Ohio

midge1249 — 2011-07-08 14:33:47Z

No relation whatsoever. Whenever I run across an old obit that I think might be of interest to other researchers, I post it, as was the case here. I'm hoping that someone will run across some old bits of information re my ancestors and do the same some day.

Re: Oct 4 1821 death of THOMAS BAY in Ohio

thomasbay95 — 2011-07-08 12:24:55Z

Berna, this Thomas was brother of James, who we believe is probably father of David William Bay, born 1809. Tom owned land in Smith township, Washington County,PA. Jumped across river to Ohio and bought land in Jefferson County. Wife named Charity. All outlined in Tommy West's Bay family book. No records yet uncovered which can prove James as father of your guy, but circumstantial evidence seems convincing.