Louden - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Re: Louden (Lowden) Family

StasiaJ26 — 2009-10-18 20:06:59Z

I'm trying to find information on Agustus and Adolph Stubelt. My family line to them is my husband---> his living father--->Elsie Stubelt---> Agustus and Adolph but that is where it ends.

Bill Louden

melvinrward — 2009-09-17 22:49:33Z

My Mother, was dorothy Hemm, she married William Louden in 1930. Their first child was Dale Marvin Louden.
they divorced. Dale was born, june 14, 1935.
they divorced and she married Glen Ward and moved to Florida.
I am helping my brother find his own paternal family history.
do you know a family, missing a Dale ?

Re: Eunice Yeomans

mcdonaldcb1 — 2009-07-16 17:01:53Z

Does anyone have more information on her and William's fifth child, aka Elijah Loudon?

I found that her siblings Elijah and Andrew lived in or near Norwich, Vermont along with her maternal uncle [Downer]. What information I have gathered is that her uncle founded the Congregationist Church in Norwich, Vt. Census records have her living in Enfield Pond, across the River from Norwich, Vt after the death of William.

Louden/Lowden

aperry9 — 2009-06-19 01:55:44Z

Still looking for info on parents and family of Joseph R Louden b 1794 Radnor, Pa. Married Mary Ann Stuard Had 4 children, Benjamin (1825), Levi, Sarah and Eliza. Possibly related to an Elijah Louden. Elijah was in vicinity around the time that Joseph took his family west to Champaign/Logan Co. Ohio. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS aperry9@woh.rr.com
Thank you so much!!!!!

Re: Looking for Loudens in PA

bschups — 2009-04-17 15:45:27Z

I'm looking for a William Louden who married Mary Pross. I believe in and around 1905 they lived in Philadelphia on Emerald St but I have been unable to locate them. Mary is listed as her father's nearest relative (John Pross) from an entry in a medical record of John. I also found an 1892 newspaper listing for a LOUDEN-PROSS marriage on Jul 16 1892 in Camden NJ and the article says that William and Mary were both from Germantown PA.
Any help would be appreciated.

Re: Matilda Jane Louden/Loudin

pluntsford — 2009-03-17 23:22:38Z

Just found who I think Hannah Huff is connected to. Did you find her in the Johnson family tree?? Is she connected to the above individuals??

Emma Louden Bradshaw

LorieNYC — 2009-02-18 15:49:28Z

I am looking for information on my great-grandmother, EMMA LOUDEN, born abt 1865 in Kentucky. She died sometime b/t 1910 & 1920.

She married Edward E. Bradshaw, born abt 1849 in Oldham, Kentucky. They had six children: May/Mae, William, Lee, George, Amanda & Sadie.

From Kentucky, they moved to Illinois. Edward ended up in Florida by 1920; I don't know if Emma was there also before she died.

I have been unable to locate any documentation regarding who Emma's parents or siblings were.

Thank you for any assistance you can provide.
Lorie B.

Re: Delilah Louden/Harrison Co., Ohio

angeleyesthree — 2009-01-15 04:59:15Z

No, there is no father or mother on her death certificate. Still all is unknown there! Thanks for the try!

LOUDEN Richard D and Ruth E

t42Moore — 2008-12-04 20:22:14Z

LOUDEN Richard D and Ruth E

I photographed this gravestone in the Moore Cemetery, Arlington,Tarrant Co., Texas. Feel free to use this picture for your personal records.

This is one of the 198,466 cemetery photos free at http://teafor2.com If you know more about this person please reply here.

LOUDEN Dean E and Jennie M

t42Moore — 2008-12-04 20:21:56Z

LOUDEN Dean E and Jennie M

I photographed this gravestone in the Moore Cemetery, Arlington,Tarrant Co., Texas. Feel free to use this picture for your personal records.

This is one of the 198,466 cemetery photos free at http://teafor2.com If you know more about this person please reply here.

Re: Fernie Louden & Eupemia Anderson

PeterBGray — 2008-11-30 16:57:58Z

My grandmother was Margaret Louden (bc1873), daughter of Charles, a farmer, and Margaret Louden of Rosetown Athy. Same family?

Re: Looking for Darlene Bieber

DarleneBieber64 — 2008-11-28 03:05:07Z

Jan ... I googled my name just for fun to see what popped up & saw your message posted on ancestry.com looking for me in March 2007 ... It's been a long time, but hope this message reaches you ...
Darlene

Re: Roy Louden

barkhauler42 — 2008-11-16 05:48:54Z

Hi, There was a Roy Louden that lived in Carrollton, Ky. when I was a kid, and that's been 35 years ago. hope this helps. You might look around in the area of Sulphur, Ky. in Henry County, I'm thinking there was one from over in that area too.

Re: Delilah Louden/Harrison Co., Ohio

Jadeda7173 — 2008-11-04 16:40:58Z

I guess I don't know if they are related or not. Maybe they could be cousins, I don't know. Did Delilah's death certificate give the name of her parents?

Re: Delilah Louden/Harrison Co., Ohio

angeleyesthree — 2008-11-04 03:06:20Z

1850 Census in Harrison County, Ohio. She is listed with her brother Perren, Both with their last names spelled LOWDEN. They were living with a Walter and Jane Craig. That's the earliest I have her besides her birth 10 May 1838 (which was found on her death certificate), then her marriage to Thomas Fitzgerald 20 March 1855. We have found news clippings that she died at home on 12 July 1909 (death certificate says 5pm) and her burial was 15 July 1909 in Guernsey County, Ohio.

Her Death Certificate says "Annie Fitzgerald" (not Delila and her cause of death was Acting (or Actino - hard to read) Mycosis. Mycosis is a type of fungal infection. The Adamsville (Ohio) Register for 13 July 1909 clipping said she died of "Lump Jaw." Now the Zanesville Times Recorder dated 13 July 1909 said "she had been ill of cancer of the mouth for about a year and her death was not unexpected."

I tried a search on Mycosis and it is a type of Fungal infection. Some areas I searched said it was a type of Lymphoma Cancer. So the news clippings make sense and so does the Death Certificate. The Zanesville Times Recorder clipping also stated that no funeral arrangements were made by the time of press, but it was probable that her remains would be buried at her old home in Guernsey.

Also, the death certificate for her son Samuel Fitzgerald has her listed as Delilah Ann Brown. Not sure where that came from but the informant was his wife Nettie Fitzgerald.

Please let me know if that's what you were looking for or if you need more info. I don't have much more but perhaps.
Let me know!! Thanks!!

Re: Delilah Louden/Harrison Co., Ohio

angeleyesthree — 2008-11-04 03:02:48Z

Re: Delilah Louden/Harrison Co., Ohio

Jadeda7173 — 2008-10-30 19:34:58Z

Hello! Can you share the information you have with me? I checked the census and was unable to find Delilah. Could you tell me where you found them? Thanks.....Jadeda

Re: Delilah Louden/Harrison Co., Ohio

Jadeda7173 — 2008-10-15 02:11:40Z

Hello, I am just wondering if Delilah is a sister to Matilda Jane Louden? Matilda married James Hamilton Parker and their first child was a daughter they named Delilah. Matilda's father was Zach Louden and her mother was Marinda Johnston. She had sisters Ruth and Sarah, and a brother Joshua. In 1850 15 year old Ruth and 9 year old Joshua were living with James and Matilda.

Louden

2007-02-01 16:34:11Z

I'm looking for a connection to Daniel and Margaret (Baird) Louden who left Co. Antrim in 1870 and settled in Livingston Co., NY. They traveled with their 5 sons and daughter, Daniel, Jr., John, Hugh, David, James, and Margaret.

George Lowden/louden

2006-11-28 14:48:57Z

I'm am looking for any information on George Lowden that was born March 9, 1903. He was adopted out of Callander, Ontario, Canada at the age of five and changed his last name to Camp. He had a sister in the orphanage also that was about two years old. It is believed he was born in England or his family came from England. Any information will help. I thought that since the were not put up for adoption until they were older, maybe the parents passed on.

Re: James George Louden

2006-11-22 03:26:28Z

Where have you been looking for your family? You could try Ayrshire, Scotland as I know that their are Woods and Loudon's from there. Also dates would be helpful.

Regards,

janet

James George Louden

2006-11-20 21:49:45Z

I am searching for information on James George Louden. He was married to Jennie Wood. I am tracing my husband's family tree. He is Alfred Lawrence Louden II, his father was Alfred Lawrence Louden, grandfather was Lawrence Leroy Louden, great grandfather was James George Louden. I have hit a brick wall now. I obtained all this info through the S.S. administration death records. I found them for father and grandfather, but I can not find anything on James. I even found death records for Jennie. My husband knows nothing of his family other than what I have mentioned. I would like to trace all the way back to Europe if possible. If you have any information, please contact me thank you......

2nd Lt. Christopher E. Loudon, 23, of Brockport, Pa.

2006-10-22 23:03:27Z

Not a relative and I have no additional information.

The DoD news release for the military service and death of 2nd Lt. Christopher E. Loudon, 23, of Brockport, Pa. may be found:

http://www.defenselink.mil/Releases/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=1...

Re: North Dakota Loudens

2006-05-07 06:01:28Z

Does Edna have anything to do with Clinton, Clair, Merle etc. If so I might have some info.

Lydia (Louden/Loudon) McMillan - 1765-1793, Washington County, NY

MLMcKenzie — 2006-07-13 01:49:16Z

Seeking parents and siblings of Lydia Loudon or Louden, born in NY about 1765. She died February 26, 1793 in Cambridge, Washington County, New York. She married February 15, 1785 at Cambridge, NY, John McMillan.

ELIZABETH LOUDEN MRD JAMES POOL ARD 1830 IN SCOTLAND? LATER OF ASPATRIA CUMBERLAND ARD 1833

Laurelee_W — 2006-10-08 13:21:38Z

Elizabeth Louden was brn ard 1801 in Scotland? She has a son listed in the 1841 Aspatria British census, John Thompson age 15 brn ard 1826 in Scotland. Her next son listed in the same census is Robert Pool age 9 brn ard 1832 in Scotland. I would conclude then that James & Elizabeth Louden Thompson mrd ard 1832 in Scotland. The family of James & Elizabeth Pool in the 1841 Aspatria British census with their children born & listed are -
ROBERT, ELIZA, WILLIAM, LOUDEN, NANNY & JAMES POOL, (ALSO LISTED SON, JOHN THOMPSON AGE 15)

Later MILLER POOL & THOMAS POOL would be added to the family. James Pool died October 18, 1846 in Aspatria at age 44. Elizabeth Pool died October 14, 1865 Aspatria at age 64.

THEIR CHILDREN MARRIED
JOHN THOMPSON MRD BETSEY DAVIDSON ARD 1868
ROBERT POOL MRD HANNAH ARD 1855??? (not confirmed yet, possible he died in 1870 at the age of 38?)
ELIZA POOL, NO RECORD OF MRG FOUND? DIED IN 1866 AT AGE 32
WILLIAM POOL MRD ELEANOR GRAVES ARD 1856
LOUDEN POOL MRD ANN SPARK ARD 1858 (my gr gr grandparents)
NANNY POOL, NO RECORD OF MRG FOUND, DIED IN 1856 AT AGE 17
JAMES POOL MRD MARY TIFFEN ARD 1863, MARY DIED IN 1880 AT AGE 36, 2ND MRG TO BARBARA BOUCH ARD 1882
MILLER POOL MRD MARY ANN HILTON ARD 1869
THOMAS POOL MRD MARTHA TOMKIN ARD 1867

Would like to talk with the Pool descendants to learn more about this family & their life in Scotland then later of Aspatria, Cumberland England. I have a photo with Thomas Pool & his friend? Louden Pool & Ann Spark immigrated to the US ard 1888, later of Nebraska then some in Canada, they had two children living then, one my gr grandmother Annie Pool & she mrd George Reid of Cockmouth. They lived in Saskatchewan until their deaths in the 1930's. Thank-you!!

obit - Mary Rachel LOUDEN, 1910 - 2006

LorraineGilmer02 — 2006-06-03 08:05:17Z

(not related - fro board info only)

Louden, Mary Rachel

Mary Rachel Louden 11/27/1910- 5/25/2006 Mary Rachel celebrated life with a bang! She was born on the Vasbinder farm in Fayette Co., Indiana. She made agood impression on her high school Latin teacher, Pauliena Gaither. In 1928, Pauliena took her home to Madison Co. where Mary met her brother, Howard, who was home from Purdue U. Mary and Howard wed November 26, 1931. They had 3 children: Kenneth, Sue and Kay. After Howard's death, Mary was a secretary at GE's jet engine propulsion lab. Later she married Jesse Louden, gaining two more daughters, Sylvia and Bertie. They later retired to Florida where Mary was Seminole Squaws president and an award winning needle point artist. Mary cameto Long Beach in 1989 where she became friend and "Grandma" to many. Mary leaves beloved family, Sue and Von Vanzant;, granddaughters, Greta Vanzant and Kay Vanzant-Bradney and husband, Jim Bradney; great grandsons, Jann Vanzant and Maxwell Vanzant Bradney; and sister-in-law, Pauliena LaFuze. Gifts may be made to her NLB Federated Women's Club "Penny Pines" Fund. Friends may drop by the Vanzant's on June 3rd at 1:00 pm to celebrate Mary's Life.
Published in the Long Beach Press-Telegram on 6/2/2006.

Re: LOUDEN Berry early 1700''s Maybe KY area

workingartiststudio — 2007-01-27 21:52:46Z

i have a great great grandmother named temperance louden who was from henry co ky married to joseph erwin. her nick name was tempest. in the early part of the civil war they left henry co and went to lawrence co il. my great grandfather william married harriet mullen(s) my grandfather ira went to montgomery co il and married hattie osborne and my father was ira and married alma dye and moved to paducah ky. my name is ira erwin.

Louden Family of Fredericksburg, TX 1914

drbrownlee — 2006-07-26 02:49:29Z

Ella and Erna Louden are pictured in the 1914 annual of Southwest Texas Normal in San Marcos. Both are seniors from Fredericksburg.

Thelma Marie (DeShetler) Louden Obit

Obitslenaweecounty — 2008-01-08 12:39:17Z

Adrian Daily Telegram, Tuesday, January 08, 2008, pg A2
Thelma Marie (DeShetler) Louden Obit
DEERFIELD — Thelma Marie Louden, age 89, of Deerfield died Saturday, Jan. 5, 2008, at Grand Court.
She was born March 14, 1918, in Adrian, Mich., to Ralph and Rhea (McCarty) DeShetler. Thelma moved with her family to Deerfield in 1931 and graduated from St. Alphonsus High School in 1936. In 1940, she married Ansyl “Tony” Louden at St. Alphonsus Church. He preceded her in death in 1971.
Thelma was a woman of strong faith and she was devoted spiritually to St. Alphonsus Catholic Church her entire lifetime. She was a member of the Altar Rosary Society and had served on several church commissions and had taught in the religion programs for a number of years. Thelma loved gardening, flowers and baking, and she spent many hours of enjoyment on her front porch.
Thelma had worked for Revco Inc. for 10 years and retired from First of America Bank after 10 years of service in 1980.
She is survived by five children, Saundra Good of Adrian, Gary (Meredith) Louden of Ft. Myers, Fla., Dennis Louden of Grand Rapids, Mich., Patricia (Ross) DeKeyser of Adrian and Douglas Louden of Blissfield. Also, she is survived by 16 grandchildren and 13 great-grandchildren. Thelma is also survived by her sister and best friend, Loretta Long. She was preceded in death, besides her husband, by her parents and three sisters, Patricia, in childhood; Janet Newell and Mary Bigelow; one brother, Bernard; and grandsons, Troy Louden in infancy, and Michael Green.
The Funeral Liturgy will be offered Wednesday, Jan. 9, 2008, at 11 a.m. from St. Alphonsus Catholic Church, Deerfield, with Father Jack Loughran presiding. Burial will be in St. Alphonsus Cemetery. Visitation will be held on Tuesday from 2 to 8 p.m. at the Anderson Funeral Home, Adrian.
A Vigil Prayer Service will be held Tuesday evening at 7:30 p.m. at the Anderson Funeral Home, Adrian. Visitation will also be held on Wednesday from 10 a.m. until the time of funeral liturgy at St. Alphonsus Catholic Church, Deerfield.
Read this obituary and send condolences to the family at www.andersonfuneralhomeadriantecumseh.com.
Memorial contributions may be made to St. Alphonsus Catholic Church. Envelopes are available at the Anderson Funeral Home, Adrian.
I do not research this family.

Lydia Louden from Londonderry

jchristy4113 — 2008-06-03 06:57:21Z

Does anyone have any information about Lydia Louden born about 1700 in Londonderry Ireland? She married Robert Armstrong. She is supposed to have died in 1759 in Augusta County Virginia.

Jim

Re: Fernie Louden & Eupemia Anderson

Leela41 — 2008-05-13 09:32:21Z

Hi THere,

Thanks for your response. Yes I know, surely there can't be two people with the same names marrying!

I'm fairly certain about my data as a g.aunt has been to the grave site of the family in co.Kildare Ireland and the headstone lists the entire family. Also, some of the gg aunts were alive to fill in the immediate family of Fernie & Euphemia, but not of the couple themselves. I'll definitely look into the Scotland thing, as Euphemia's obit in the newspaper mentions the family coming to the country (Ireland) over thirty years ago, so it is possible (or probable) they came from Scotland.

Fernie Louden & Eupemia Anderson

Leela41 — 2008-04-29 10:13:47Z

Hi there,

Looking for any info on Fernie Louden bc 1811 & his family. Euphemia, his wife (nee Anderson bc 1815), their children: William, Isabella, David - My direct gg grandfather, Jessie, James, Jeannie & Charles. They lived in Athy, Co. Kildare between 1855 - 1910 (confirmed dates), but I have David showing in baptism/christening records in Co. Carlow in 1852. David came to NZ in approx 1881 but the other siblings stayed behind, they never married. I am trying to track Fernie & Euphemia to find extended family.

Any help, or if you know of Fernie & Euphemia in your family, would be appreciated.

Re: LOUDEN--DAN & wife MARGARET

Leela41 — 2008-04-29 09:16:38Z

Hi Margaret & Mike,

Just wondering if I have a link to Margaret.

I am looking for any info on Fernie Louden (born c 1811) & his family. Euphemia, his wife (nee Anderson - b. c1815), their children: William c1850, Isabella, David - My great great grandfather, Jessie, James, Jeannie & Charles. They lived in Athy, Co. Kildare between 1855 - 1910 (confirmed dates as all but David & William remained in Nr Athy until they died), but I have David showing in baptism/christening records in Co. Carlow in 1852. David came to NZ in approx 1881 but the other siblings stayed behind, they never married. I am trying to track Fernie & Euphemia to find extended family, but unfortunatley there aren't any records to be found!

Re: Loudens in Minnesota

slinky1952 — 2006-12-19 05:44:08Z

Looking for any information pertaining to my grandfather. His birth name was Henry Louden. He was born in 1909 to a Harry Louden, possible mothers maiden name is Marie? He was adopted in Minnespolis, Minnesota by Roy and Blanch Lay in 1911. Grateful for any information.

Loyden (louden Leaden) from Sligo Ireland? Collins

atloyden — 2006-12-19 21:33:58Z

My surname is spelt Loyden, however as has been said on this board already there are several variations. I believe I have traced my ancestor back, to a Patrick Loyden born c1850 in Sligo. He almost certainly married a Margaret Collins (born in Dundalk) and had at least one son James ( born in Middlesbourgh England) and later settled in Liverpool.
Any help on the Loyden family history in Ireland would be much appreciated.

Regards Andy

Re: Loudens in Minnesota

sug53 — 2007-02-25 01:49:12Z

Hi Sandy --

My extended Louden/Loudon family lived/lives in Minnesota - I'll be emailing you later this evening with more details. Thank you for this post! Sue Manz Graham sug53@earthlink.net

Re: Loudon / Louden Families of Minnesota, Montana and North Dakota

sug53 — 2006-11-17 00:06:57Z

Hello Again - That would be great! I've also connected with more Louden/Loudon clan, so there's even more to share. I now have a picture of Charles & Margaret Louden and all their children, except for Caroline. My computer needs some work before I can do anymore scanning/sending, but will be glad to share what I have once that is complete. Thanks for staying in touch! Sue sug53@earthlink.net

Re: Loudon / Louden Families of Minnesota, Montana and North Dakota

sug53 — 2006-11-17 00:06:57Z

Hi Again -- Perhaps I already sent those pictures to you? If not, just let me know. Also, let me know if you've received my e-mails regarding Sadie, Caroline and the Avery brothers. I'm heading out on vacation at the end of this week, but would love to share what I've gathered over the last few months. I'll stay in touch :-)
Sue

Louden History with Songs

sug53 — 2007-12-04 04:01:51Z

Hello -- I am doing research on songs the Loudon/Louden/Lowden families may have brought with them from Scotland/Ireland for a book I am writing about my mother - a Loudon. One specific song is "Frog Went A Courtin'" -- This version is not the one I learned in grade school, but the one my mother sang to me. The words and tune are slightly different: "Frog went a-courting and he did ride,Rinktum, boby, minchy, cambo, Sword and buckler by his side.Rinktum, boby, minchy, cambo,Kimaneero down to Cairo Kimaneero Cairo Straddle addle ladda bobbo Ladda bobbo linktum,Rinktum, boby, minchy, cambo." Does this sound familiar to any Louden's out there; and, does anyone know the history? Many Thanks! Sue sug53@earthlink.net

Re: LOUDEN--DAN & wife MARGARET

paulcone — 2007-01-26 20:49:56Z

I noticed the Baird last name and the Livingston Co., NY location. My grandmother and greataunt Agnes W. Baird and Margaret J. Baird both emmigrated fron Co. Antrim, N. Ireland and settled in Geneseo, Livingston, NY. My Aunt Margaret arrived in 1911 and my grandmother in 1921. Perhaps your Margaret Baird Louden is an aunt or cousin of theirs.

Re: Victor Michael Louden of Rensselaer County, Troy, NY

hookie19 — 2006-06-07 01:41:16Z

victor louden was my grandfather. I would love to find out what info you have. Also how does he tie into your family?

Lookin for RUTH LOUDEN or Charlotte her daughter

Lynn2422 — 2007-09-21 17:16:53Z

Not sure how the last name is spelled. I believe Ruth married someone last name Hayes. Not sure if Charlotte was last name louden or Hayes . Charlotte born in early to mid 60's. Charlotte had Aunt named Dot Louden. Believe Charlotte born in Marion, Virginia, also think she lived in Bristol. Any info please email me at ncalhoun1@Tampabay.rr.com.

Re: Ben Louden

bmylady1 — 2006-10-21 22:22:11Z

please chagen iwrite tohope you dosoming for me change the place werehe dide

Sarah Jenie Louden of Pennsylvania

ida8888 — 2007-05-19 04:35:17Z

ISO info regarding Sarah Jenie Louden who married John W. Swain. The spent much of her married life in Jersey Shore, PA and also lived in Mercer County, OH. They had 5 children that I know of.

I believe she may have a sister Mary E. Loudon and a brother William G. Loudon. Any info would be appreciated.

ida_anderson@hotmail.com

Looking for Kurt Williams

jandur — 2007-03-30 01:16:25Z

Looking for Kurt Williams, great great grandson of Adam Loudon. I need a viable email address in order to share information.
Thanks,
Jan

Looking for Darlene Bieber

jandur — 2007-03-30 01:11:57Z

In the past I have corresponded with Darlene Bieber concerning Louden/Lowden ancestors. I no longer have a viable email address for her. Can someone help?
Thanks,
Jan

Re: Fernie Louden & Eupemia Anderson

ELLinSpain — 2008-05-10 00:10:26Z

Hello

EUPHEMIA ANDERSON
married FERNIE LOUDEN
18 FEB 1848 Newtyle, Angus, Scotland

There cant be 2 people of the same name, marrying?

Are you certain of your data?? I can also find (1851)a Euphemia & children;George, Isabella, James, John & Margaret in (1851)Kemback, Fife or, a Euphemia with a son David born c1850 in Balmerino, Fife, Scotland with sibling Helen & Margaret !

Re: Delilah Louden/Harrison Co., Ohio

angeleyesthree — 2008-10-14 04:42:18Z

Delilah Ann Louden. She has been found on an 1850 Census with a Brother named Perren (not living with their parents!) No parents known but I do have some information after she was married to Thomas Fitzgerald!! Please....Let me know if its what you might be looking for or if you have any link to her parents perhaps!! It would be greatly appreciated!!!!!!! Thank you!

Delila and her Brother Perren Louden Harrison, County Ohio???

angeleyesthree — 2008-10-14 04:36:30Z

Searching for information on Delila Ann Louden. She and her brother were found on a 1850 Census as Lowden's but not living with their parents. Hoping to find any more information! Her brother has not been found before or after that either. Any one has a possible link please contact us!! Thanks for your time and attention