Hello Ken. It's been quite a while since I've been to this site. I had to respond here because I don't have your e-mail address. I believe your right. Herbert and my Grandfather Frank were brothers. Herbert was grown and out of the house when my Grandfather was born or at least quite young, So I guess they never knew each other. There must have been a situation there that I'm not aware of. My Grandfather never talked about his family much. Only on a few occasions. I know his father was a barber in Palo. My Grandfather married my Grandmother(Marietta Higbee) about 1920. They had one son,my father Frank W.(Jim) . He, in turn, married my mother,Leora Weber(of Greenville Mi.). And they had 2 sons. Me and my brother Terry R. who still lives in Ionia and no is/was never a Grand Rapids football coach. If you want to continue on my e-mail is jwminier@chartermi.net.