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MY THEORY ON THOMAS PAYNE AS SON OF JOHN PAYNE AND PHILADELPHIA AYERS

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MY THEORY ON THOMAS PAYNE AS SON OF JOHN PAYNE AND PHILADELPHIA AYERS

RAY LEWIS PAYNE (View posts)
Posted: 20 Jul 2004 9:14AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: PAYNE, HUMPHRYS, MCDANIEL, LONG
Subj: VIRGINIA, NORTH CAROLINA, SOUTH CAROLINA AND
GEORGIA PAYNES....
Original Date: 9/2/03 (Revised numerous times since.)

MY UNCLE, CARL PAYNE, IN TELLING ME WHAT HE KNEW
ABOUT THE PAYNE FAMILY, RELATED THAT JOHN
PAYNE/PANE/PAYN/PAIN/PAINE, MY GREAT GREAT
GRANDFATHER, LEFT HIS WIFE, DID NOT DIVORCE HER AND
RETURNED TO “WHERE HE HAD COME FROM” (MEANING NORTH
CAROLINA.)

HE SAID MY JOHN PAYNE THEN LIVED IN NORTH CAROLINA,
WITH ANOTHER WOMAN, WITHOUT MARRYING HER OR DIVORCING
HIS FIRST WIFE, SUSANNA HUMPHRYS, AND HAD MORE
CHILDREN BY THE WOMAN. WHEN JOHN PAYNE LATER RETURNED
TO THE AREA WHERE SUSANNA LIVED TO SEE HIS
CHILDREN/FAMILY, MY UNCLE TOLD ME THAT SUSANNA REFUSED
TO SEE HIM, WENT TO HER SISTER’S HOUSE AND HID UNTIL
HE LEFT.

MY UNCLE DOES NOT GOSSIP, SO I SUPPOSE IN THIS CASE HE
SAW NO PROBLEM WITH TELLING THIS SINCE THIS WAS COMMON
FAMILY KNOWLEDGE AND SINCE THE PEOPLE WERE LONG GONE.

OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS I HAVE PUZZLED AT
DIFFERENT TIMES OVER THIS AS, FROM WHAT I CAN TELL
FROM MY RESEARCHING EXTENSIVELY THE CENSUS AND OTHER
RECORDS, IT DID NOT HAPPEN. JOHN LIVED WITH SUSANNA
WELL INTO AN AGE AT WHICH HE WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE
ANY MORE CHILDREN. I WAS STYMIED IN TRYING TO FIGURE
THIS OUT, IN PART BY THE FACTS THAT NO ONE SEEMS TO
KNOW WHERE JOHN WAS BURIED, THAT I HAVE BEEN UNABLE SO
FAR TO LOCATE HIS GRAVE AND THAT HIS WIFE APPEARS TO
HAVE BEEN BURIED ALONE, NEXT TO HER FATHER, WITH HER
GRAVE BEING UNMARKED.

MY UNCLE HAD HELPED ME SEVERAL YEARS EARLIER START THE
RESEARCH ON MY ANCESTORS, BY PROVIDING ME WITH A BRIEF
CHART OUTLINE OF JOHN PAYNE, HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN, AS
WELL AS HIS WIFE’S SISTERS, BROTHER AND PARENTS, AS A
RESULT OF THEIR OWN DISCUSSION OF THE HUMPHRYS TEXAS
OIL ISSUE. THIS CHART HAD GREATLY HELPED ME WHEN I
WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT ALL THE PAYNES OF VIRGINIA,
NORTH CAROLINA, SOUTH CAROLINA, TENNESSE AND GEORGIA.
MOST HELPFUL FOR ME NEXT TO MY UNCLE WAS A FORTUNATE
FIND BY A FRIEND OF MINE WHO SAW A BOOK ON CHEROKEE
COUNTY NORTH CAROLINA IN WHICH THE 1850 CENSUS WAS
GIVEN AND WHICH LISTED JOHN AND SUSANNA AND THEIR
CHILDREN IN IT.

FOR A LONG TIME THOUGH I WAS SIDE TRACKED IN MY
CONTINUING SEARCH FOR ANCESTORS OF THIS JOHN PAYNE BY
THE PAYNES IN FRANKLIN COUNTY GEORGIA AND AGAIN BY
SOME OF THOSE IN BURKE COUNTY NORTH CAROLINA
APPARENTLY NOT DIRECTLY IN MY OWN LINE. PART OF THE
REASON FOR THIS IS SO MANY OF THE PAYNES HAD SUCH
COMMON NAMES, AND ANOTHER PART WAS I THOUGHT THEY
LIVED MAINLY IN BURKE COUNTY FOR QUITE SOME TIME
BEFORE MOVING TO CHEROKEE COUNTY NORTH CAROLINA
BRIEFLY BEFORE SETTLING IN POLK COUNTY TENNESSEE AND,
PARTICULARLY FOR LATER DESCENDENTS, FANNIN COUNTY
GEORGIA. I HAD ASKED MY UNCLE WHERE IN NORTH CAROLINA
THE PAYNES HAD COME FROM, WHICH IS ALSO THE ANSWER TO:
WHERE DID JOHN GO BACK TO? UNCLE CARL CALLED A
DISTANT COUSIN ON MY BEHALF, AND THE COUSIN STATED HE
BELIEVED IT WAS BURKE COUNTY. MY UNCLE HAS ALSO TOLD
ME OTHER STORIES ABOUT THE PAYNES BUT THESE TWO IN
PARTICULAR, THE DESERTION BY JOHN OF HIS WIFE AND THE
BURKE COUNTY ORIGIN, WERE ALWAYS HANGING OVER MY
RESEARCH FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.

THERE WERE TWO OTHER RECORDS/HISTORIES THAT I HAVE
BEEN GIVEN COPIES OF AND THAT WERE SENT TO ME BY
DISTANT FAMILY MEMBERS. ONE IS AN ORAL HISTORY, OF
WHICH I WAS GIVEN A WRITTEN COPY, THAT STATED THAT MY
JOHN PAYNE AND HIS WIFE ALONG WITH HIS BROTHER JAMES
AND HIS WIFE, FIRST SETTLED NEAR DAHLONGEGA GEORGIA AT
CUT CANE CREEK WHEN JOHN WAS FIRST MARRIED, BEFORE
MOVING TO CHEROKEE COUNTY NORTH CAROLINA WHERE THEY
WERE FOUND IN THE 1850 CENSUS. THE SECOND RECORD IS A
PHOTOCOPY OF A LETTER, PURPORTEDLY WRITTEN BY AN
ACE/ASA PAYNE TO THE HUMPHRYS FAMILY IN WHICH HE
MENTIONS HE INTENDS TO GO VISIT HIS NEPHEWS, JOHN AND
JAMES, SOON. THIS LETTER WAS WRITTEN IN SUPPORT OF
THE PAYNE/HUMPHRYS QUEST FOR THE TEXAS OIL BONANZA BUT
I REALLY THINK THE RELATIONSHIPS GIVEN IN IT WERE
BASED ON FACT SO AS TO LEND CREDULITY TO THE EFFORT AT
THAT TIME TO OBTAIN THE RIGHTS TO THE TEXAS LAND.


AS FOR THE CHRONOLOGY OF MY LINE OF PAYNES THAT I HAVE
FIGURED OUT AND FOUND THUS FAR, FROM MANY, MANY
RECORDS, LIBRARIES, COMPUTER SEARCHES, EMAILS AND
MESSAGE BOARDS, WITH SOME OF THIS BEING THEORY AND NOT
FACT, IT IS I THINK LIKE THIS:

AT THE TIME OF THE 1840 CENSUS, THOMAS PANE, AGE 40 TO
50, WAS IN RUTHERFORD COUNTY NC WITH HIS WIFE, OF THE
SAME AGE, AND SEVEN CHILDREN, FIVE SONS AND TWO
DAUGHTERS. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THESE FAMILY MEMBERS
WERE HIS WIFE NANCY, HIS SONS JOHN, JAMES, WILLIAM,
NATHANIEL AND THOMAS AND HIS DAUGHTERS DELPHIA AND
NANCY. IN THE SAME COUNTY IS WILLIAM BROWNLOW
HUMPHRYS, (UMPHIS IN THE CENSUS RECORD,) LIVING WITH
WIFE CHARITY MCDANIEL, SON WILLIAM BROWNLOW HUMPHRYS
AND DAUGHTERS SUSANNA, ELIZABETH, MARY ANN, MALINDA
AND CHARITY, AS WELL AS APPARENTLY HIS MOTHER, THOUGHT
BY SOME TO BE SUSANNA WEBB (HUMPHRYS.)

IN THE 1850 CENSUS, THOMAS PANE/PAYNE WAS AGE 50 AND
WAS IN RUTHERFORD COUNTY NORTH CAROLINA, LIVING WITH A
MUCH YOUNGER WIFE ANNA, 26, AND FOUR CHILDREN, CASA
(KEZIAH?) 10, RICHARD 9, REBECCA 7, RACHEL 5 AND ELI
2, ALL BORN SINCE 1840.

ALSO IN THE 1850 CENSUS, NANCY PAYNE, AGE 45, WAS IN
UNION COUNTY GEORGIA WITH 3 MINOR CHILDREN, THOMAS 15,
NATHANIEL 14 AND NANCY 13, AND WITH ANOTHER SON
WILLIAM, AGE 25, NEXT DOOR NEWLY MARRIED TO 15 YEAR
OLD LETTY, WITH ALL HER CHILDREN BEING BORN BEFORE
1840. (IN THAT SAME COUNTY ARE FOUND JOHN PAYNE AND
PHILADELPHIA AYERS AS WELL AS TWO OF JOHN’S SONS.)

IN THAT SAME CENSUS MY JOHN PAYNE, 30, WAS IN CHEROKEE
COUNTY NC WITH HIS WIFE, SUSANNA HUMPHRYS, ALSO 30,
AND THEIR CHILDREN, JAMES E 11, WILLIAM 3, NANCY 3 AND
THOMAS 2 MONTHS. JOHN’S BROTHER JAMES AND HIS NEW
WIFE ELIZABETH HUMPHRYS, SUSANNA’S SISTER, LIVED RIGHT
BY THEM ALONG WITH THE WIVES' PARENTS, WILLIAM
HUMPHRYS AND CHARITY MCDANIEL.

THE 1850 CENSUSES THUS ARE RATHER CLEAR AS TO WHERE
THOMAS AND NANCY AS WELL AS JOHN AND JAMES ALL WERE.

IN THE 1860 CENSUS FOR POLK COUNTY TENNESSEE ARE THE
BROTHERS JOHN AND JAMES PAYNE, THEIR WIVES AND
CHILDREN, AS WELL AS THE HUMPHRYS PARENTS, ALL LIVING
NEXT TO EACH OTHER, WITH OTHER RELATIVES NOW MARRIED
WITH CHILDREN OF THEIR OWN ALSO CLOSE BY. THERE IS
ALSO A JOHN PAYNE, AGE 84 AND BORN IN VIRGINIA, LIVING
NEXT TO JOHN AND HIS BROTHER JAMES. IN THAT HOUSEHOLD
IS A WOMAN NAMED “AMELIE,” AGE 55 AND BORN IN
TENNESSEE PER THIS CENSUS RECORD. NATHANIEL PAYNE,
THE SON OF NANCY PAYNE, WAS ALSO IN THE HOUSEHOLD OF
JAMES PAYNE.

FOR A LONG TIME I WAS UNABLE TO LOCATE NANCY PAYNE IN
THE 1860 CENSUS AND SEARCHED FOR NANCYS IN TN GA NC
AND SC WITHOUT SUCCESS. I AM NOW CONVINCED THAT SHE
IS THE AMELIE (A PHOENETIC SPELLING OF EMILY) FOUND IN
JOHN PAYNE’S HOUSEHOLD, THE ONE JOHN PAYNE WHO IS 84
AND BORN IN VA. ALTHOUGH LISTED AS BEING BORN IN TN,
SHE WAS HIS DAUGHTER-IN-LAW, I BELIEVE, AND TENDED TO
HIM IN HIS OLD AGE WHILE HER UNMARRIED SON WAS A FEW
DOORS DOWN IN JAMES PAYNE’S HOUSEHOLD. IT IS MY
THINKING THAT JOHN PAYNE WHO MARRIED PHILADELPHIA
AYERS IS THE GRANDFATHER THUS OF THE THIS JOHN, JAMES,
NATHANIEL, WILLIAM AND THOMAS (AS WELL AS NANCY AND
DELPHIA) AND THAT THIS PAYNE AGE 84 FROM VIRGINIA IS
THE SAME ONE THUS FOUND IN UNION COUNTY IN 1850.

IN POLK COUNTY TN AT THIS TIME ALSO ARE WILLIAM PAYNE,
THE SON OF NANCY PAYNE, ALONG WITH HIS WIFE LETTY, AS
WELL AS, IN ANOTHER AREA OF POLK COUNTY AT THE TIME,
DELPHIA PAYNE WHO MARRIED ELIJAH HILL. THOMAS PAYNE,
NANCY’S OTHER SON, WAS NOW MARRIED AND STILL LIVING IN
UNION COUNTY GA WHERE HE REMAINED. NANCY’S DAUGHTER
NANCY IS ALSO MARRIED AND LIVING IN SOUTH CAROLINA
WITH HER HUSBAND IN THE AREA WHERE MANY OF THE PAYNES
PREVIOUSLY LIVED EARLIER IN THE 1800’S BEFORE MOVING
TO NC AND GA.

THOMAS PAYNE, MY THEORETICAL FATHER OF JOHN AND JAMES
WAS IN 1860 NOW IN MCDOWELL COUNTY NC WITH HIS WIFE
ANNA AND ADDITIONAL CHILDREN.

BY 1870 NATHANIEL PAYNE WAS IN HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD NEAR
JOHN AND JAMES, AS WELL AS SOME OF THEIR GROWN/MARRIED
CHILDREN AND THE HUMPHRYS PARENTS IN POLK COUNTY
TENNESSEE. IN THE SAME HOUSEHOLD WITH NATHANIEL PAYNE
WAS HIS MOTHER NANCY PAYNE.

ADDITIONAL NOTES:

A DIRECT DESCENDENT OF MOSES PAYNE OF NC AND UNION
COUNTY GA HAS DNA IDENTICAL TO MINE.

JOHN PAYNE STATED IN THE 1880 CENSUS FOR FANNIN COUNTY
GEORGIA THAT HIS FATHER AND MOTHER WERE BORN IN NC,
WHICH IS WHERE BOTH THOMAS AND NANCY WERE BORN.

THE JOHN PAYNE AGE 84 WITH WIFE AMELIE STATED IN THE
1860 CENSUS FOR POLK COUNTY TENNESSEE THAT HE WAS BORN
IN VIRGINIA, THE SAME AS THE JOHN PAYNE, WHO MARRIED
PHILADELPHIA AYERS AND WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN AGE 80 IN
1860.

THE NATHANIEL NAME CAME FROM THE AYERS AND NOT FROM
THE PAYNES THEMSELVES.

BIRTHS: MY JOHN PAYNE WAS BORN IN ABOUT 1820. (MORE
RECENT INFORMATION SEEMS TO INDICATE HE WAS BORN IN
SURRY COUNTY, BASED ON JOHN AND PHILADELPHIA AND
THOMAS’ WHEREABOUTS IN THE 1820 CENSUS.) HIS LIKELY
FATHER THOMAS WAS BORN IN ABOUT 1800 AS WAS NANCY HIS
LIKELY MOTHER. JOHN'S WIFE SUSANNA WAS BORN IN ABOUT
1820.

THOMAS' POSSIBLE FATHER AND MOTHER, JOHN PAYNE AND
PHILADELPHIA AYRES, WERE BORN IN ABOUT 1780. THE AGES
ARE RELATIVELY CLEAR THRU THE VARIOUS CENSUS RECORDS
BUT DO VARY DUE TO POOR CENSUS TAKING I AM SURE.

I NOW THINK THAT THE CHILDREN SHOWN FOR THOMAS PAYNE
IN 1840 IN RUTHERFORD COUNTY NC INCLUDED MY JOHN PAYNE
AND HIS BROTHER JAMES. JOHN APPEARED TO BE AT HOME AT
THAT TIME, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE INDICATIONS THAT HE WAS
SUPPOSEDLY MARRIED IN ABOUT 1840 AND HIS SON JAMES WAS
BORN THAT YEAR. HIS WIFE SUSANNA
HUMPHRYS/HUMPHREYS/UMPHRIS/UMFRESS SEEMED TO BE IN HER
FATHER'S HOUSE IN THE SAME AREA AT THAT TIME.

THUS: I AM SPECULATING THAT THIS THOMAS PAYNE WAS THE
SON OF JOHN PAYNE AND PHILADELPHIA AYERS/AYRES THAT
LIVED IN BURKE COUNTY NC IN 1830 AND THAT HE MOVED
ALSO WHEN JOHN AND PHILADELPHIA MOVED TO UNION COUNTY
SUCH THAT BY 1850 THEY WERE IN THE SAME AREA AS THE
NANCY PAYNE. (JOHN AND PHILADELPHIA ALSO HAD TWO
OTHER SONS MOSES AND JOHN IN THE SAME UNION COUNTY
AREA. ANOTHER SON, DANIEL PAYNE, WAS IN CHEROKEE
COUNTY NC IN 1850 NEAR JOHN AND JAMES AND THE REST.)

I THINK THAT THOMAS WAS THE FATHER OF JOHN (AND JOHN’S
BROTHER JAMES, WITH THE TWO HAVING MARRIED HUMPHRYS
SISTERS) AND THAT THOMAS' WIFE'S NAME WAS NANCY. I
THINK THEY ALL MOVED DOWN TO UNION COUNTY GA RIGHT
AFTER 1840 AND THAT THOMAS ONLY STAYED A SHORT TIME,
MOVED BACK TO RUTHERFORD COUNTY AND STARTED LIVING
WITH ANOTHER WOMAN.

ORAL HISTORY OF WHICH I HAVE A PHOTOCOPY INDICATES
THAT THEY ALL MOVED TO NEAR DAHLONEGA TO CUT CANE
CREEK WHEN JOHN AND SUSANNA WERE FIRST MARRIED AND
THEN JOHN AND SUSANNA MOVED WITH JAMES AND ELIZABETH
TO CHEROKEE NC. THIS CUT CANE CREEK AREA APPEARS TO
BE NORTH OF LUMPKIN COUNTY AND IS IN UNION COUNTY,
JUST SOUTH OF THE POLK COUNTY AREA AT THE TIME.

AND THEN BACK TO THE OTHER ORAL HISTORY, OF MY UNCLE
CARL PAYNE, WHICH TOLD OF JOHN GOING BACK TO NORTH
CAROLINA TO WHERE HE CAME FROM AND LIVING WITH ANOTHER
WOMAN, NOT MARRYING HER AND HAVING MORE CHILDREN….
THAT FITS THOMAS PAYNE HIS THEORETICAL FATHER
PERFECTLY. (JOHN AND SUSANNA ARE STILL TOGETHER IN
THE 1900 CENSUS, AT ABOUT 80 YEARS OF AGE, HAVING BEEN
MARRIED FOR 60 YEARS.)

BY 1860 I THINK PHILADELPHIA HAD DIED AND JOHN HAD
MOVED TO POLK COUNTY TN AND WAS LIVING WITH
NANCY/EMILY AND WAS THUS THE OLDER JOHN PAYNE LIVING
NEXT TO HIS GRANDSONS JOHN AND JAMES.

THE FACT THAT THESE PAYNE LINES OF RELATIVES LIVED
RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER OVER SO MANY DECADES SO MUCH
IS THE BASIS OF SOME OF THIS GUESSING AND SPECULATING
WITH ALL FACTS THAT I HAVE FOUND THUS FAR, MAKING IT
CONSISTENT AND WITH THERE BEING NO CONTRAINDIATIONS TO
ANY OF THIS.

THE PROBLEM IS ESTABLISHING THAT THOMAS PAYNE WAS THE
FATHER OF JOHN, JAMES, THOMAS, WILLIAM AND NATHANIEL
AS WELL AS NANCY AND POSSIBLY DELPHIA.



=====
RAY LEWIS PAYNE
SubjectAuthorDate Posted
RAY LEWIS PAYNE 20 Jul 2004 3:14PM GMT 
RAY LEWIS PAYNE 20 Jul 2004 3:21PM GMT 
Mary 20 Jul 2004 5:39PM GMT 
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