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German or Danish ?

German or Danish ?

Posted: 12 Jun 2003 3:46AM GMT
Classification: Lookup
Edited: 20 Sep 2005 11:51PM GMT
Really a specialised field

Once Denmark extended southwards to the boundaries of HAMBURG the HANSA trading town on the river ELBE which a Danish King tried to capture - but it was a too tough nut for him to crack.


PRUSSIA was an independant state much of which is POLAND today.

ALTONA was Danish from 1640 to 1864 and an independant town until 1937.

An attempt to separate the Duchy of Holstein from Denmark led to the Danish Pussian war of 1848 to 1850

The next war in 1864 meant SCHLESVIG and HOLSTEIN were lost to Prussian and Austria

In 1920 SLESVIG the northern half of SØNDERJYLLANDS amt was returned to Denmark after a referendum.


also spelled SCHLESWIG

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&i...

a handy map http://feefhs.org/maps/gerw/gw-schl.html

note ANGELN peninsular where the ANGLO SAXON tribes came from.


The islands may be called FRIESIAN also SYLT

the Freisians being sailors and traders and mercenary soldiers some of whom settled in Wales about 1080

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-885...

lots of horses too
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-885...

and cows

http://images.google.com/images?q=friesian+cows&btnG=Goo...

For genealogists there are german families living in Denmark and Danes living in Saxony

The boundaries are political not cultural

http://ddd.dda.dk/
here http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kipkort/fronta-e.htm

the absent census from 1870 shows when they were Germans

double clicking nysquae produces a mpa showing parishes

eg http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kipkort/kort/sles1860.gif

Sydslevig in 1860

http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kipkort/kort/hols1860.gif

shows HAMBURG and LÃœBECK retaining their independance as city states

better stop there

the -sen names are the most common Danish patrynomics

I will try and findd some German statistics

You get German families all over Denmark

SCH is a give away eg former prime Minister POUL SCHLÃœTER

Czech too REINCKE via POMMERN now in POLAND

good hunting

Hugh W


Re: German or Danish ?

Posted: 12 Jun 2003 4:03AM GMT
Classification: Lookup
Edited: 20 Sep 2005 11:51PM GMT
http://www.thekolbesite.de/der_name.html

Schlesisches Namensbuch catches my eye >> wrong SILESIA

here http://www.google.com/search?q=Schlesisches+Namensbuch&n...

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&i...

In the border lands Saxon is spoken rather than High German you learned at school.

Plattdeutsch und Plattdänisch im Grenzland

an example of the kind of mobility to expect
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~bgwiehle/index.htm#...

enjoy

Hugh W

Re: German or Danish ?

Liz Larsen (View posts)
Posted: 16 Jul 2003 10:52AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Hansen, Matthieson, Larsen
What interesting reading Hugh......I have been looking for or at least trying to make sense of this all day. Yesterday I finally got a birthdate/place for an ancestor....

Else Marie Hansen emigrated to Queensland, Australia but was born in 1872 in "Styding, Slesvig, Germany".

Now when I did a search for Styding, I found it near Vojens in Denmark!!!!.....so started the confusion for me. Now I realise that SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN changed hands many times and the borders must have moved maybe???

........So in 1872 technically she would have born in Germany? not Denmark as now? have I got that right???
The area is now South Jutland?

Her parents were Peder Hansen and Dorothea Marie Matthieson (out of interest)

Thanks

Liz
Australia

Re: German or Danish ?

Posted: 16 Jul 2003 2:02PM GMT
Classification: Lookup
Edited: 20 Sep 2005 11:55PM GMT
yes and it leads to problems with census

and other documents

see http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kipkort/fronta-e.htm

this is a check list of what has been keyed in
see SYDSLESVIG

LDS at UTAH also has German film
use place search and Danish or German spellings

for example see http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kipkort/kort/hols1860.gif

Denmark ended at the ELBE river

Hamburg and Lübek remainde independant city states from the HANSA trading time

so those records are elsewhere

In 1921 ? four counties voted to return to Denmark the others are German to this day

It really pays to study
http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kipkort/fronta-e.htm

I also use http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/9991/index.html

to check parish names and geography

and http://www.krabsen.dk

for more local names too
>> This page is intended to give a short introduction to the website in English.
The choice of a Canadian flag is ment as a greeting to our family in Alberta! <<

enjoy

Hugh W



Denmark: history of the German border lands

Posted: 28 Jul 2003 3:02PM GMT
Classification: Lookup
Edited: 20 Sep 2005 11:56PM GMT
Slesvig & Holsten were two sparsely populated duchies (dukedoms) which had been ruled by Danish kings since 1460. Holsten was wholly German-speaking; Slesvig was mixed German/Danish speaking.Slesvig had been closely associated with Holsten since medieval times. With the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806, Denmark incorporated Holsten under the Danish crown. Frederik VI remained duke of Holsten, but allowed Holsten and adjoinng Lauenburg (acquired in 1814) to join the newly established Confederation of German States. Slesvig did not join. This set the stage for a complex conflict against pan-Germanism, with dynastic and territorial dimensions.
In the first Slesvig-Holsten war (1848-50) the Danes retained the territories, roundly defeating the Germans at Fredericia on 6 July 1849.
Bismarck and pan-Germanism continued to gather support and in 1864 German and Austrian forces prevailed. Slesvig, Holsten & Lauenburg were incorporated into Germany, and Denmark lost 1/3 of its territory and population, reducing it to its smallest size since consolidation of the kingdom, with a frontier across Jutland just south of Ribe.
In 1920 a referendum allocated Northern Slesvig and the island of Als to Denmark. This became Synderjyllands amt. The remainder of Slesvig (including Flensborg) became part of what is now the German Land of Schleswig-Holstein. This border has not changed since 1920
Danish Holsten was administered from Itzehoe, and Slesvig from the town of the same name.
See Alastair H Thomas and S.P. Oakley, Historical Dictionary fo Denmark (Lanham, Maryland and Oxford: Scarecrow Press, 1999) - it also includes much useful information on 'great Danes'.

Re: Denmark: history of the PRUSSIAN or German border lands

Posted: 29 Jul 2003 12:56PM GMT
Classification: Lookup
Edited: 20 Sep 2005 11:57PM GMT
Surnames: Bismarck
I think one should add thet it was PRUSSIA at war with Denmark because the German union / confederation did not yet exist.

>> After the success of Prussia in the six weeks Austro-Prussian War of 1866, Prussia annexed Schleswig-Holstein, Frankfurt, Hesse-Homburg, Nassau and Electoral Hesse, so that all of Germany north of the river Main were either Prussian or allied with Prussia.

Prussia then created the North German League (Norddeutscher Bund), complete with Wilhelm I of Prussia as head of state and a North German Reichstag in Berlin.

<< from http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de1867.html


>>
The Zollverein, started by Prussia in 1834 gradually moved south to incorporate the smaller states in one customs-free economic union. This customs union was a great boon to industrialization and had far-reaching implication for future political unification<<

>> Bismark’s steps of unification

War with Denmark 1864 over Schleswig-Holstein.

War with Austria 1866 and the consequent establishment of the north German confederation in 1866. Established the Bundesrat and Reichstag.

War with France 1870-71 to bring the southern states into Germany.

Franco-Prussian War
http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/History/By_Time_Peri...



from http://www.iun.edu/~hisdcl/h114_2002/germanunification.htm

>> (Danish and ) German nationalism could trace its origin to the Romantic movement in the late 18th century against the French export of Enlightenment ideas. Challenging the view that scientific principles were universal, the Romantics in central Europe contended that individuals and individual peoples were unique, bound by a unique soul that was not subject to universal scientific inquiry.

The Napoleonic invasions of central Europe reinforced German nationalism. <<<

Denmark backed the other side and got attacked by the Briitsh consequently

BTW Bismark also introduced national health insurance for the whole population.

see http://sangha.net/messengers/bismark.htm

>> Bismarck, Prince Otto Edward Leopold von (1815-98),

Prusso-German statesman, who was the architect and first chancellor (1871-90) of the German Empire.

Bismarck was born on April 1, 1815, at Schönhausen, northwest of Berlin, the son of a landowning nobleman (Junker) and an upper-middle-class commoner; his multifaceted background accounts for the unique blend of intellectual subtlety and Junker parochialism in his personal makeup. He studied law and in 1836 entered government service. <<



After 1864 many young Danish men migrated to avoid conscription into the Prussian / German army

Hugh W

Re: Denmark: history of the PRUSSIAN or German border lands

Posted: 29 Jul 2003 4:39PM GMT
Classification: Lookup
Edited: 20 Sep 2005 11:58PM GMT
Yes: this puts the Danish/German border into the broader German context. It is useful to be reminded of the boost that the 1864 conquest gave to emigration: much of it westward across the North Sea and the Atlantic, but some also northward into (what remained of) Denmark.

Another important effect was the sharper definition of Danish culture and the boost to Grundtvig's ideas for education and the church (including all his hymns), the folk high schools, the co-operative movement, agricultural development of the heathland of western Jutland, and later the infrastructure of railways, ferries and bridges.

Alastair Thomas

Re: Denmark: history of the PRUSSIAN or German border lands

Posted: 29 Jul 2003 11:20PM GMT
Classification: Lookup
Edited: 20 Sep 2005 11:59PM GMT
And then rising Danish nationalism focussed on DANNEBROG

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&a...

and a whole culture of flag days


National Days:

April 9 - Occupation of Denmark 1940 (half mast until noon - then full)
May 5 - Liberation of Denmark 1945
June 5 - Constitution Day
June 15 - Valdemar Day (Dannebrog's "birthday") << when money is collected to pay for mor eflags


http://www.denmarkemb.org/flag.html



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Religious Holidays:
New Year's Day
Good Friday - The flag is at half mast the whole day
Easter Day
Ascension Day
Whit Sunday
Christmas Day

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birthdays in the Royal Family:

March 28 - Queen Ingrid
April 16 - Queen Margrethe II
April 29 - Princess Benedikte
May 26 - Crown Prince Frederik
June 7 - Prince Joachim
June 11 - Prince Henrik
June 30 - Princess Alexandra

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Military Flag-flying Days:

February 2 - Battle of Mysunde 1864
February 11 - Storm of Copenhagen 1659
April 2 - Battle of Reden 1801
April 18 - Battle at Dybbøl 1864
May 9 - Battle at Helgoland 1864
July 6 - Battle at Fredericia 1849
July 25 - Battle at Isted 1850
October 4 - Storm of Frederiksstad 1850


an image here
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/dk.html

and some of the flag code here http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/dk-fcode.html
flag

more detailed here
http://www.geocities.com/bf_aalborg/flag.htm

Fanevagt is Danish for flag- bearer

and the original society for the promotion of the flag

http://www.danmarks-samfundet.dk

Organisation is called Danmarks-Samfundet (D-S).
headquarters Brøndby kommune.
founded 13- september 1908.

Inbrief to promote love of the flag, respect for the traditions it symbolizes, and distribute flags to worthy organisations and individuals,

>>Disse vedtægter er vedtaget på Danmarks-Samfundets ordinære repræsentantskabsmøde den 20. november 1982 i Idrættens Hus i Brøndby kommune.<<

This constitution was passed at Danmark-Samfundets general meeting 20 November 1982 in the Sports Centre at Brøndby (a suburban town near Copenhagne)

So in 2008 there should be a party

Hugh W

Dimensions
Flagstang = flag pole
Flag bredde = width of flag
Hus højde = height of house

A storm flag is half the width

a streamer or vimple is used to avoid a boring empty flag pole

half the height of the flag pole in lengh

http://www.danomast.dk/default.asp?Id=122&Tkat=1

al because at the beginning of the twetieth century Denmark felt very much thretened by Germany.

enjoy

Hugh W


Re: Denmark: history of the PRUSSIAN or German border lands

Lynne Petersen (View posts)
Posted: 9 Oct 2003 8:53AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 20 Sep 2005 11:59PM GMT
So is the nationalism provoked by uneasiness about the southern border wars explain where the tradition of hanging little DK flags on the Christmas tree originates?

Re: Denmark: history of the PRUSSIAN or German border lands

Posted: 9 Oct 2003 1:25PM GMT
Classification: Lookup
Edited: 20 Sep 2005 11:59PM GMT
No the rise of romantic nationalism across Europe in the nineteenth century
and the threat of absorption by Bismark's Prussia which became the German Federation

http://www.ancestry.com/library/view/news/maps/5869.asp

Description
National map of Germany showing the creation of the Northern German Federation in 1866 and of the German Empire in 1871.

To research the detail you need to study dated illustrations of Christmas trees - anything else is guesswork

there are pages on the correct use of flags in Denmark with a an address where you might enquire

Or ask the National Museum

poor people sometimes used a walking stick kale as a Christmas tree Grønlangkål

http://users.ats.dk/bjb/Jule_trae.jpg



Sønderjydsk Kål
http://home.worldonline.dk/ejstrups/kokkenhaven_november.htm

http://users.ats.dk/bjb/groenkaal.htm

one of my all time favourite web pages

ask http://www.vhm.dk/vhmhj.htm



Hugh W
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