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help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 16 Apr 2008 10:50PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Harrach
My great grandfather was George Harrach born in Breslau Germany, his father was Peter who lived in Breslau, and his father was Count Johann Karl Harrach (or Count Karl Harrach) who also had a brother Maximilian (plus 7 other siblings). And their father was Karl I, Count Harrach-Rohrau-Purchtenstein. Our problem is that we can't find any records saying that Count Johann Karl Harrach (or Count Karl Harrach) had any children AT ALL. Some records show that he died in the 30 years war with his brother-both were officers in the Knight's academy in Gitschin-in the armies of Wallenstein. How can we track down records that will help us?

Re: help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 19 Apr 2008 11:06AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Harrach
Hello,

Harrach is a well known surname, and was an old noble family. There's still a palais in Vienna named after them, and several members of Harrach branches in our phonebook www.herold.at ...

You might find more information through http://www.surnamenavigator.org/

Is there any information linking *your* Harrachs to Austria? Or rather to the old Austian empire (you mention the 30-years-war!)?

Tilman

Re: help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 19 Apr 2008 4:25PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Harrach
Thanks Tilman for your reply. Yes we are directly related to the Austrian Count Harrach family. Someone once told my father that we were not from the royal Harrach family ANYMORE. We were told that we didn't belong to the royal family because Johann Karl married a non royal, thus he lost his title of count. But after researching that, a count doesn't loose a title because of marrying a non royal. So I really want to know if we are all counts and countesses (our American branch of the Harrach family). The problem is that no one can find records of the birth of Peter, Count Johann Karl's son. Count Johann Karl (and his brother Maximilian) was supposed to have been killed when he was fairly young in the 30 years war, and had no children. His father was the famous Count Karl I who had many children,(he was related to Otto Friedrich). One of his daughters (she would be Johann Karl's sister) went on to be the only heir of the Austrian branch of the family. And our family was forgotten.

So that is why I'm looking for information as to how to find birth or death records (or any kind of records) in Breslau, where I think most of them were born or died.

Re: help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 19 Apr 2008 5:31PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello,

you could try and post a query to the Breslau/Wroclaw board http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.ceeurope.poland.provin...

You have probably searched these boards here for the surname already? The Search box is on top of each message board page.

Another option would be contacting professional genealogists - some with experience in the field of noble families, like e.g.:

Heraldisch-Genealogische Gesellschaft "Adler"

Universitätsstrasse 6/9b
AT-1096 Wien
Österreich
Austria, Europe

Email:
office@adler-wien.at

Tilman

Re: help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 21 Apr 2008 3:31PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Harrach
Tilman, thanks for this information. We have looked us up on Ancestry.com but there is only the information we already had. But I will try the other email you gave me, that looks good! If you know of anything else I can do I'd appreciate any help. If I were to go to Breslau, Wroclaw would it be easier to find this information? I can only speak English, though.

Re: help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 22 Apr 2008 10:12AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello,

".... If I were to go to Breslau, Wroclaw would it be easier to find this information? I can only speak English, though."

Before actually *going* to Breslau I would certainly try to find out more about the archives and chances that you'll find anything there. Again, post to the Wroclaw board or even that for Poland, people over there should know more than I do.

I've read that there's a reference library at the state archive or also at the university which is said to be helpful. Then there's the Standesamt 1 (=registry office 1):

Urzad Stanu Cywilnego,
ul.Wlodkowica 20/22
50-072 Wroclaw (12)
Poland, Europe
Email: usc@um.wroc.pl

and the State archive:

Archiwum Panstowowe w Wroslawiu
ul. Pomorska 2
PL-50-215 Wroclaw
POLAND, Europe
email: wroclaw@ap.wroc.pl

More details on archives here (in German only): http://www.breslau-wroclaw.de/de/breslau/source/tip_archiv/#...

Poland - Unknown province - message board:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.ceeurope.poland.unknow...

As to the language, the number of people speaking at least a bit of English should be slowly increasing, I guess.

Tilman

Re: help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 11 May 2008 2:51PM GMT
Classification: Query
Sorry, but there is something wrong with you story: If count Johann Karl Harrach is your great-great-great-grandfather he must have lived in 1750 - 1800. But this is 150 - 200 years away from the 30-years war.
Your Karl, First Count of Harrach, died in 1628. He had 9 children, 6 sons and 3 daughters. So there are some generations missing (about 6 - 8) in your ancestry-line.

The problem is also, that you will never find a child of Johann Karl, because he was not married. He only could have had illegitimate children and this children never had the right to wear the title Count. But it is very improbable, that a illegitimate child would have been named after his father with "Harrach". I think it would be better, to research first the ancestry line step-by-step.

In Breslau there was an infantry-regiment "Harrach" in the 7-years war. Maybe the father of your first Harrach was a soldier there and so the name "Harrach" was created in this way. Or - what is very possible - that the first Harrach was so called "Hofjude" (jew at the court) of the Harrachs and in the end of the 18th century - when all jews had to get a last or family name - he was allowed to wear the name of his lord. For this, i know a lot of examples like Waldstein, Schwarzenberg, Liechtenstein etc. etc.

Re: help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 11 May 2008 6:20PM GMT
Classification: Query
Reitermann, do you know or can you look up Harrach family tree information?

My great grandfather was George Harrach born in 1856 in Breslau, he had a brother named Peter-they both moved to the USA when young men. Their father's name was also Peter Harrach, born in Europe, somewhere.

When my ancestors left Europe and moved to the USA they brought some Harrach things like the coat of arms and a family tree that was written on a scroll with them.

Someone told my father about our ancestor fighting in the 30yrs war. We are not Jewish at all, but direct decendants of the Harrach family. My father's cousin (a USA government agent) researched our family and later went to Rohrau Austria (a few times) and met with our family there-but he passed away and his information is lost. The Rohrau Harrachs welcomed him and no one ever thought we were Jewish.

How do you know that Johann Karl was never married?? Were you able to look up that information?

thanks Harrach

Re: help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 11 May 2008 11:46PM GMT
Classification: Query
Sorry, but I have only literature about the Harrachs in German.

But I could give you some informations about the Harrachs.
1. No Harrach ever beared the first name "Peter" - and they beared a lot of first names. As we say: as a Harrach you are not called Peter.
2. I wonder, whom your cousin met, because the last count of Harrach lives in Bruck a. d. Leitha, not in Rohrau. In Rohrau lives only his grand-cousin Countess Waldburg zu Zeil née Countess Harrach.
3. There was a famous painter named Ferdinand Count Harrach, who lived in Breslau in the 1850ies. There he went to school and spent his military service as Kuerassier.(Kuerassier = special kind of cavalery). Maybe he had a girl friend there....
In 1869 he married Helene Countess Pourtalès and had six children with her - but no Peter.
The father of Friedrich was Carl Philip, born in 1795, who also lived in Breslau. He also had no son named Peter or Georg. But maybe he had a girl friend...
If one of this lineage would have had children with a girl friend, this children would not have been members of the family and they never were counts. Maybe they got the last name Harrach - I wonder how - but in 99 percent of this cases you will never find a church record with the real fathers name. You would need a specialist to get a (near) proof.
What you need are european church records. Maybe your great grandfather changed his name with his arriving in the USA. Maybe because his mother told him this story or something else.
4. That your great grandfather came with the coat of arms or a family tree on a scroll has absolutely nothing to say. a) You never saw this coat of arms or this family tree b) Why did your great grandfather leave europe when he was a count?
5. I am member of the "Adler", which adress you have. And I am specialiced in the genealogy of the austrian nobility.

Please keep in mind, that genealogy is a step by step-research. You will need every date of birth, marriage and death in your family, that you could get. You will need the name of the ship, date of immigration etc. etc. before you will get more informations about your ancestors. But please forget the idea, that you are a member of the Count-of-Harrach-family. The members are well known - since 300 years.

Re: help with Harrach birth/death records in Breslau Germany

Posted: 12 May 2008 2:21PM GMT
Classification: Query
Oh, I don't doubt first name changes at all. Even my grandfather changed his name to sound American, and he was born in America.

The Countess who lives in Rohrau isn't even a Harrach by blood, only by marriage, so your information isn't correct either. My father's cousin met with the Harrachs that live in Rohrau, but I didn't say he met with a Count that lived there. I think the Count there had died before my father's cousin went there.





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