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"Black Dutch"

"Black Dutch"

Posted: 1 May 2005 5:54PM GMT
Classification: Query
Working on my hubby's folks. Working back from late to early I have Stowell (Stolle, Stohl, Stoel, Stull) married to Hartman/Hardman, married to Broadhurst (Bradecks, Broaddus), married to Hostetler/Hochstetler, married to Townsend, followed by Wise, Hartley, Rupp, Price, Simcocke, Kautmann, Klinkenberg/Clinkenburgh, Lorentz, Paxson, Harvey, etc.

George (Walker ?) Stowel married Emma Jane Hartman/Hardman in 1878 in Napa, CA, d/o Levi Wise Hartman and Alice Bradecks/Broadhurst, s/o Benjamin J. and Catherine Hostetler. I can't find the Stowels to save my life.

The Hartmans were from Bischofsheim, Palatinate, Germany. The Broadhurst family is described as "Low Dutch", from the Netherlands perhaps. The Klinkenbergs were from Utrecht, the Hostetlers from Switzerland or Alsace. The Townsends are Quaker, as are the Hartleys, Paxsons, Plumleys, and possibly the Simcockes. What a mixture, I even have some Wallons - the Praa/Prats and the Philippes.

Are any of these names to be associated with the Sephardim?

Re: "Black Dutch"

Posted: 5 May 2005 6:06PM GMT
Classification: Query
There were Sephardic Jews named Philipps (see separdim.com), but from looking over your list of names and places of origin, it seems to me that your husband's family is 100% gentile.

Re: "Black Dutch"

Posted: 31 May 2005 8:40AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 10 Apr 2006 12:39PM GMT
Kimberly Re your family surnames
You may know this already-
CJSI Consolidated Jewish Surname Index - within the avotaynu site - http://www.avotaynu.com/csi/csi-home.html has most of the names.
Data bases for further research.
The CJCI link which you can copy and paste into your browser. http://data.avotaynu.com/wconnect/wc.isa?jg~jgsys~cjsi
Scroll below this CJSI explanation to see what I copied for you.
"What is a Jewish Name?
Some people use CJSI to determine if a surname is Jewish. The fact that you find a surname in this index does not necessarily mean that a given surname is Jewish. This occurs for three major reasons:
1. Jews and non-Jews share surnames. The third most common Jewish surname in the United States (after Cohen and Levy) is Miller. Clearly Miller in both non-Jewish and Jewish.
2. Intermarriage and conversion. The fact that the surname McGraw appears in a burial database means someone named McGraw is buried in a Jewish cemetery. That does not make it a Jewish surname. Similarly, the Family Tree of the Jewish People is a database of family trees developed by Jewish genealogists. But it would also include non-Jewish branches of families.
3. Nature of database. Some of the databases named are predominantly Jewish but do contain non-Jewish individuals. An example is the Russian Consular Records database of people who transacted business with the czarist consulates in the United States."
Note from Barb: IMHO if virtually all of a person's surnames are in CJSI, that person certainly could have some Jewish ancestry.
I plan to get book Finding Our Fathers which outlines the name changes from the area of Israel to the mediterranean countries Spain Portugal France and Italy - to Holland UK and the Americas. Not everyone with sephardic ancestry has a mediterranean - sounding name. At any rate I found a lot of your names. No one can tell you "your family surnames are 100% Gentile," with such certainty not when most of them are in CJSI. PLS Note: the letters to right of surname are the data bases.

280000..................STOHL..........................AHIMp "Stowell (Stolle, Stohl, Stoel, Stull)
married to Hartman/Hardman,"
593660.................. HARTMAN.....................ABCHIKMOPQSTadeginop
593660...................HARDMAN....................HIMop
"married to Broadhurst (Bradecks, Broaddus)"
793594...................BROADHURST..............IPl
note sephardic Bardaxi data base U could have been basis of Bradecks
Broadhurst married to Hostetler, Hochstetler, married to Townsend,"
543389.................. HOSTETLER.................M
Hochstetler not found I found Hockstatler
554338..................HOCHSTATLER.............M
376463................. TOWNSEND..................IP
"followed by Wise, Hartley, Rupp, Price,"
740000................ WISE.............................AHILMPTabdegilnop
593800................ HARTLEY...................... HILl
970000................ RUPP............................AHIPT
795000............... PRICE...........................AHILMNOPTbdegilop
"Simcocke, Kautmann," (Note: Found are similar names CJSI -BLT)
465500............... SENKAK.........................A
536600............... KHOUTMAN....................S (French Jewish)
"Klinkenberg/Clinkenburgh, Lorentz Paxson, Harvey, etc."
586567............... KLINKENBERG...............HI
896400.............. LORENTZ....................... AIS
597000.............. HARVEY........................ HILPTgp

George (Walker ?) Stowel married Emma Jane Hartman/Hardman in 1878 in Napa, CA, d/o Levi Wise Hartman and Alice Bradecks/Broadhurst, s/o Benjamin J. and Catherine Hostetler. I can't find the Stowels to save my life.

The Hartmans were from Bischofsheim, Palatinate, Germany. The Broadhurst family is described as "Low Dutch", from the Netherlands perhaps. The Klinkenbergs were from Utrecht, the Hostetlers from Switzerland or Alsace. The Townsends are Quaker, as are the Hartleys, Paxsons, Plumleys, Note: (I did not find Plumley but did find Plumlee)
786800 PLUMLEE HI and possibly the Simcockes. (Note: Re SIMCOCKE I did find several similar names Senkak below is a Belarus Jewish name.)
What a mixture, I even have some Wallons - the Praa/Prats and the Philippes.
786400 WALENZ A
786400 WALENS g
786400 WALLANS g
786400 WALONS p
793000 PRAT AIS

Note from Barb: It takes some digging. That's the position I am in. So I am still researching, myself. most of our surnames from all branches are in CJSI.
Best of luck you can correspond with me RE Townsends if you like. My earliest known Townsend is G.G.Grandfather James Porter Townsend d. CO abt mid-1800s.

Re: "Black Dutch" PS about PRAA and Phillippe

Posted: 31 May 2005 9:00AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 10 Apr 2006 12:40PM GMT
Kim I forgot about your Praa and Phillipe surnames: CJSI
790000............ PRA......................R

787000............PHILLIPPE ............H





Barb

Re: "Black Dutch"

Phillip Applebaum (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jun 2005 7:16PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 10 Apr 2006 12:40PM GMT
I disagree with your observation -- "No one can tell you 'your family surnames are 100% Gentile,' with such certainty not when most of them are in CJSI" -- regarding my comment to Ms. Gaylord. (You quoted me incorrectly. I stated: "... looking over your list of names and places of origin, it seems to me that your husband's family is 100% gentile.")

You may not be aware of it, but the overwhelming majority of humans on planet earth is gentile (about 99.5%). Thus, when presented with a list of names, none of which has much or any historical association with Jews -- and with no other evidence to point to Jewish origin -- it is logical to assume that these people are part of the gentile majority. On what basis does Ms. Gaylord ask if her husband's ancestors were Jews? She does not say. She might as well have asked if they were Eskimo.

Jews have lived in and continue to live in all parts of the world, and bear all kinds of surnames. Some of their names are derived from the Hebrew language or from other Jewish sources and are almost always identified with Jews (although there are gentiles with such names too, but that is a different story). Other names are derived from the language of the host country, and with great frequency those names are also carried by gentiles. Thus, one needs some other evidence to point to or even suggest a Jewish origin. What evidence did Ms. Gaylord present? None.

A basic rule in genealogy is: work with what you have. Do not make assumptions unless you have good reason to, otherwise you will waste your time searching in areas that have nothing to offer.

Directing Ms. Gaylord to the Consolidated Jewish Surname Index simply because the names on her list also appear in the index is sending her on a wild goose chase.

Re: "Black Dutch"

Posted: 10 Apr 2006 8:54AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 10 Apr 2006 12:40PM GMT
Phillip I don't think you need to say I sent her on a wild goose chase, not when she herself asked if any of the surnames could have a sephardic origin. The answer is yes, obviously. If you do not agree, well that is all right

Re: "Black Dutch"

Posted: 21 Jan 2011 12:10AM GMT
Classification: Query
This reply has nothing to do with this subject. Sometime ago you made a notation on a record in the Bronx NY census that a William Jackson was actually someone by the name of Lewis Katz. I am William Jackson's great grandson. Everything in this record matches up with my family, as Jacksons. Just wondering what info you had to make the connection to Katz?

Re: "Black Dutch"

Posted: 21 Jan 2011 1:30AM GMT
Classification: Query
Tom, it's been so long that I just don't remember. I do genealogy for a living and I had a client with some sort of connection to Katz/Jackson. If I can look it up, I'll get back to you, but at this point, I don't even remember who the client was.

Re: "Black Dutch"

Posted: 21 Jan 2011 3:28AM GMT
Classification: Query
Thanks for the quick response.

I am quite certain, although certainly not positive, that this family and William Jackson in particular are who they said they were at the time of the census. I am just as certain the 2 year old, Jack, is my paternal grandfather. I realize at the time a lot of people of Jewish descent may have been "under the covers", but this doesn't make sense to me for this family. The 4 year old, Catoline, who went by Kathleen, actual became a Dominican nun later in life. While there is some talk of Jewish roots on the maternal side of my family tree, there is no evidence of it (so far) on the paternal side. I have had conversations with folks who are still alive, who actually knew these people, and they have never, ever mentioned a possible Jewish background.

Please don't read any anti Jewish sentiment into my comments. I am only after the facts and the truth. If my descendants were Jewish, I would be no less proud of them. In fact, quite the opposite could be true! I might be more proud of the. It would certainly be a point of conversation with my Jewish friends.

If you should ever recollect what you were working on at the time, I'd sure be intrigued by the info.

Thank you

Tom Jackson

Re: "Black Dutch"

Posted: 21 Jan 2011 3:34AM GMT
Classification: Query
Please give me the context in which you saw my correction. Which census? Which year, which state, which city? Give me the enumeration district and sheet number. I'll look it up and see if it can jog my memory.
Phil
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