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Please can someone Help with finding family

Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 11:08AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Smith
Firstly let me apologise for a repost on an old thread, but after all this time I am still coming up against a brick wall.

I am having huge difficulty tracing my ancestors on my grandfathers side of the family.

Unfortunately neither I nor my mother ever new who her father was.

We recently obtained his Army records and I have received the following information.

William Richard Smith Born 8th July 1912 in Columbus, Franklin, Ohio, to William and Samantha Jane

He was married twice. His first marriage was to Loretta Louise Thiele on the 2nd December 1932 in Franklin Ohio, oddly though, apparently Loretta was under age at the time and so used her mothers name to get married Norma Carty, They where divorced in 1942 in the county of LA, California where her real name was then used in the decree.

They had 2 children

William Henry II Smith Born 20th Dec 1932
Norma Jane 20th February 1934

He then married someone called Juanita Rose on the 5th December 1945 in Ohio and they had a daughter Judith Lynn born 14th December 1945.
Juanita had a son from a previous relationship, David Leroy West born 9th November 1936.

I know from his service records, William had a brother called Claude Williard Smith.

I also know from service records that his first wife and 2 children where living at 2846 Valley Boulevard, El Monte, California In August 1941, however, I have been unable to find this on the census, there is however a loretta smith, Billy and Norma Jane smith showing at 2870 Valley Boulevard, El Monte, California, not sure whether that is a coincidence or not.

in 1946 William and Juanita were living at 49 Russell St, Columbus, Ohio

According to army records, Claude Smith also lived at this address in January 1942. but I have been unable to find this in census either.

If anyone is able to assist me with any information I would be extremely grateful, my searches are not showing up anything :-( these are all details that have been provided through retrieved army records.

Re: Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 2:01PM GMT
Classification: Query
I'm not related, but sometimes find in interesting to help find someone's missing connections. I think I've found the 1920 census for the family. It's in Columbus ward 14 district 240 page 2. We have a William H 51 who's a house carpenter, his wife Mattie 31 (it works as a shortened form for Samantha), and children Katherine 16, Odessa 8, William 7, Lillian 4 and Claude 2. I assume the H in the father's name is Henry as it'd explain the William Henry Smith II. I suspect strongly that Katherine is from a first marriage of William H. Odessa was b Nebraska the rest OH. Mattie's father was b MA mother OH.

Re: Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 5:23PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Smith
Thank you for your reply.

I once thought that this record was related to the family but then I kept hitting a dead end there as well.

Other members who shared the same record, never showed my Grandfather William Richard Smith or his wives and Children.

I messaged several people who was sharing that record any never got any replies :-(

I can not believe how hard this has been to trace this side of the family, especially after receiving his Military Records, confirming Dates of Births for his children and places that they lived.

Cant help thinking that I am either doing something wrong in my searches, or for some reason through the course of history My grandfather was excluded from his family

Re: Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 6:04PM GMT
Classification: Query
Something else that has been very confusing is that I have been finding names on the census, with the same street addresses that were given in the military records, however the house number has been different.

This has happened on quite a few records, so I am then unsure as to whether it is a coincidence or a admin error by either the military or the census records.

An example of this is.

In my Grandfathers Military Records, there is a document that names his brother Claude Willard Smith as living at
656 Kerr Street, Columbus, Ohio on the 9th January 1942.
In the 1940 Census there is a record of a Claude Smith living at rear 661 Kerr Street.
Coincidence or admin error?

Like I said, this has happened with almost all of the records and addresses that were supplied in the military records for several of his family residences. the street will match but not the house numbers

Re: Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 15 Aug 2012 8:04PM GMT
Classification: Query
I wouldn't worry too much about such a small discrepancy. It could be as simple as a child moving out of his parents house to his own place across the street. Smith is a common name, but Claude isn't. I think we can be certain it's the same Claude Smith. At worst it'd be a cousin, but assume it's the same and work from there. I don't know what software you use, I use Family TreeMaker. When I make an assumption I write that it's an assumption in the person's record and then if it becomes clear later the the assumption is unwarrented it's easy to go back and correct things. I'll see if I can find the children from the 1920c in an overlapping census.

Re: Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 16 Aug 2012 9:19AM GMT
Classification: Query
Thank you so much for your help, it is very much appreciated.

I do not actually use any software, I have just been using ancestry.com to search and build the family tree.

I started out last year for my Mother, because after all these years she finally wanted to know her roots, as she never met her father and other siblings.

My mother was a war baby you see and was actually brought up by her grandmother. She never knew her father and believed he never wanted to know her, hence the reason she never looked for him.

So it came as a massive shock to her when we received her fathers military records, that he did acknowledge my mothers existence and actually had a copy of her birth certificate in his file and had tried to find her himself.

I thought it would be easy to trace the family tree, what with all the information that was supplied by the military, but actually it has been really difficult.

Anyhow, thanks again, and as I say, all help is extremely appreciated.

Kindest Regards

Matt

Re: Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 16 Aug 2012 2:00PM GMT
Classification: Query
That's true, you can just enter things directly into Ancestry.com trees. In face I've done a bit of that on a Dardinger Family Tree. I just find it easier to have the software directly on my computer. Anyway I'd come across your Morris Family tree while trying to find more info and was wondering about some of the information there which is a bit different or additional than in your original post in this thread. In particular that you have Samantha's surname as Tunneyhill. Is there a source for that in the military records? Likewise you have Felix as William Richard's grandfather. Is there evidence this is correct? Obviously official information trumps speculation or guesswork, but with super common names like William Smith it's very easy to pick the wrong one and run with it. I have both a William Miller and a David Evans as brick walls in my mother's tree, and know from experience the pitfalls of trying to find the next generation back.

BTW, if you want to discuss things away from this board, let me know and I'll send you my e-mail address via your Ancestry screen name.

Re: Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 16 Aug 2012 5:59PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi David.

I have deleted quite a lot of the information that was in the Morris Family tree because I think I may have gone down the wrong track and some of the information was not verified.

The name Tunneyhill does not come from the army records but from family Search.org
Film Number: 285164
Digital Folder Number: 4016232
Image Number: 447
There was a marriage record for William Henry Smith to a Samantha Tuneyhill which seemed to fit.

The army records only gave details of mother as Samantha Jane who was residing at RT 2 Circleville,Ohio, USA in 1946 which was a different address to his fathers which was given as N. High Street, Columbus, Ohio for the same year so I assume they must have been divorced by then.

From The Service records, there has been a lot of confusion over William Richard, first Marriage to Loretta Thiel.

I know that Loretta was an Inmate at the Girls Industrial School, in Delaware, Ohio,
inmate number 9681 in 1931.

They Married in January 1932 in Columbus, Franklin, Ohio, USA. Loretta was afraid of being sent back to the Industrial School, so apparently she used her mothers name to get Married, which was Norma Carty.

I have not been able to find any record of this marriage, However according to military information they were divorced in October 1942 Los Angeles County, California, USA where her real name "Loretta Theil" was used in the Decree. Again I have been unable to find this record which makes things very confusing.

I know the names and ages of Williams first children with Loretta are correct as these appear in the Military records with the place of residence.

William Henry II Smith Born 20th December 1932 Franklin, Ohio
Norma Jane Smith Born 20th February 1934, Franklin Ohio

on the 5th December 1945 he Married Juanita Rose West in
Franklin, County, Ohio, USA
They had a Daughter Judith Lynn Smith born on the 14th December 1945

I know from service records that in 1946 they were living at 49 Russell St, Columbus, Ohio.

I don't know if it helps but my Grandfathers service number was: Sergeant William Smith United States Army Air Force 39162970

I am so grateful for your help, I am more than happy to talk either here or through e-mail.

Thanks again

Matt

Re: Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 26 Aug 2012 11:04PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi....

First of all, not related, just trying to help.

There IS a marriage record online for a William Richard Smith, born July 8th (says on marriage record born in Texas - ?); father William Henry Smith, mother Samantha Hall....marries a "Norma Carty" who's claiming to be 21 years of age, born April 24, 1910 and living at 17 W Lincoln in Franklin County. They were married Jan 20, 1932.

IF this is Loretta Theil marrying under the name "Norma Carty", the marriage record is free online at the LDS FamilySearch site.

Now, Loretta's mother was Nora Anna McCarthey/McCarthy, born May 18, 1891/92 in Northern Ireland, the daughter of Michael and Catherine [Rile] McCarthey of Ireland...according to her marriage record to Frank R Theil.

Nora and Frank R Theil were married Feb 21, 1911 in Franklin County. They had the following kids:

Paul - born about 1912
Helen - b. 11/17/1913 - d. 6/18/1934 of a fractured skull which was under investigation.
Loretta - born about 1916/17
Margaret - born about 1918/19
Ruth - born about 1920
Richard Franklin Jr - b. 7/17/1924 - d. 11/9/1940 - of cancer
Norma J - born about 1928
John - born about 1930

Loretta shows up in the 1920 and 1930 Census's in Columbus with Frank and Nora; in the 1920 Census they're living at 651 Hamlet (and Nora is claiming birth in OH - parents Germany).....in 1930 Census, they're living at 17 W Lincoln [same address Loretta/"Norma Carty" gives in marriage record] - now Nora claims birth in Ireland. By 1940, Nora & Frank Theil are now living at 922 North High Street in Columbus with 2 children - Richard Jr who will die later that year, and daughter Norma J. Sure enough, on Richard Jr's death cert, the address is listed as 922 1/2 N High St.

As a side note, and for what it's worth, I did find a California death index record for a Nora Ann Theil, born May 28, 1890 in "other country", dying Jan 27, 1958 in Orange County, CA, parent/mother listed as "McCarthy". Also found an online OH death certificate for Frank R Theil, born Aug 4, 1887 in London, Madison, OH died April 7, 1947 at University Hospital in Columbus of respiratory failure - wife and informant - Nora Theil...they were living at 1248 Harrison in Columbus when he died. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if Nora headed west to CA after Frank died to see Loretta and kids and ended up dying there.


Frank's father was August Karl Theil (b. 20 Oct 1862 in Germany - died July 27, 1937 in Middletown, Butler, OH - buried in London, OH), and according to marriage record, Frank's mother was Amelia/Emily/Anna(b. Nov 1863 in Germany)...however, I find an Amelia Henrietta Springer Thiel buried next to August Karl Thiel (spelled 'ThIEl' now instead of 'ThEIl') born Nov 17, 1863 Germany - died June 16, 1946 Middletown, Butler, OH.

Margaret Thiel b. about 1918/19, Loretta's sister, pops up in the 1930 Census living with August & Emily Theil in Butler County, listed as their granddaughter. Yep.

[According to records, August's parents were Frederick William Theil/Thiel and Elizabeth Labinsky both of Germany....SO, if you're a direct descendent of Loretta Theil, there's some ancestry on her paternal side. On Loretta's maternal side, there's some Irish heritage.]

William Richard Smith....well....this gets confusing. :-0

First of all, I suspect that that is Loretta (Thiel) with the 2 kids, 'Billy' and Norma Jane in that 1940 Census for El Monte, LA, CA. On that marriage record where Wm R Smith marries Juanita (Turner) West in 1944, he states that his address is 49 E Russel St Columbus, but that he's stationed in Santa Ana, CA as a soldier....Santa Ana is in Orange County [where Nora Thiel died in 1958] and Santa Ana activated an Army Air Force Base in Santa Ana on Jan 1, 1942. So, he may have moved the family there in 1942 - then divorced Loretta - came home to Columbus on leave in 1944 - married Juanita....Yes, by 1946 they probably were living in Columbus, as that Army Air Base in Santa Ana was decomissioned on March 13, 1946.

You mentioned that Wm R had a brother Claude...born about 1917, right? Well, there's a memorial to a Claude Willard Smith on Find-a-Grave...that he was born Jan 9, 1917 - died Dec 22, 1959 in Columbus; was in the Navy in WWII. Person who posted the memorial says he was the son of Felix Smith* and Viola Gilbert. NOT SURE that this is the Claude you're looking for....[you may want to consider going to F-a-G and e-mailing the person that posted the memorials to Smiths in Ross County.]

You mentioned that a Claude Smith was listed in records as having lived at 654 Kerr St....that was Juanita's father's home address when she married Wm R Smith.

If you Google map Kerr St in Columbus, you'll see that Kerr runs into E Russell and E Russell runs into N High St (where the Thiel's lived)..and N High runs into W Lincoln (where Loretta Thiel also lived). They all sure lived close together.

Back to Claude's father (per F-a-G memorial) - "Felix" Smith. I'm coming up with some of the same stuff that another member here (Leona) came up with back in 2011 on your thread.

Look again at the marriage record for a William Henry Smith marrying a Bertha Cydrus in 1905 in Ross County; his name is listed as "William Henry Smith", yet he signs and puts "his mark - X" as FELIX SMITH....why?! Wm H is 32 at the time of this marriage, and surely doesn't need his father's consent....second, I don't believe at 32 he's never been married before either....plus, I found where Bertha Cydrus remarried later and claimed that she's never been married before either - lie!

I wonder, but do not know, if they're one and the same person. Go to F-a-G and look at the memorial to "Felix C Smith" - it mentions him being survived by a step-son William R Smith of LA, CA! Something's just not adding up here. Second, you'll see that that Felix Smith's other wife was "Mattie" (Samantha?) J Hall....I think he 1st married Viola, then Bertha, then Samantha/"Mattie"....so IF that "step-son" Wm R Smith of LA, CA is "your" Wm R Smith.......???? Or am I way off?

Hope this helps some...I see some more possible connections elsewhere...I think! But something is awry here, plus, there was some serious fibbing going on back then too.

I'll leave it at this for now as I'm confused!

Best wishes,
Kat in FL

Re: Please can someone Help with finding family

Posted: 27 Aug 2012 1:47PM GMT
Classification: Query
Oh kat

Thank you, thank you, thank you, i really can not thank you enough.

A lot of the information that you have gathered seems to make a lot more sense now.

I have been having a complete nightmare with all this and thought I was going totally crazy and doing something wrong lol.

I can confirm from Military records at one point, Claude Smith was living at the same address as juanita.

To be honest, it has been so confusing working out who the heck is married too and whether the marriages were even real.

I will input all the information you have given and see were else it leads.

I really do appreciate your help and would be most grateful if you were to come up with any more leads.

kindest Regards and best Wishes

Matt
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