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Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 28 Aug 2011 4:13AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 28 Aug 2011 4:24PM GMT
DNA ancestry is new to me but I can smell an error here. I just had my DNA analysis done and the result was that I was haplotype J2-m172, common in the middle east but very rare in Europe, exclusively found in southern Greece and Italy. Trouble is I have done my genealogy back to the 1500s and am confident that all my ancestry is from northern Europe, specifically England and Germany. Everyone in my family and ancestry is blond, very fair with blue eyes and so on. Is there any reasonable explanation for this mismatch or should I demand a retest? And please don't tell me that I descend from a Yemeni orphan adopted by germans in the 1400s!

Re: Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 30 Aug 2011 4:29AM GMT
Classification: Query
First, where did you test, and is that a predicted or confirmed haplogroup? STR test results can usually predict a haplogroup, but only a SNP test can actually confirm it.

Second, while J2 is rare in Europe, it's not unheard of. According to Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.sht...), it's found in 4.5% of Germans and 3.5% of English.

Third, the Y chromosome has no genes for hair or eye color. Y-DNA is mostly irrelevant to physical appearance (except, of course, the fact you're male and not female).

Fourth, even if you had a solid paper trail for your paternal ancestors back to the 1500s, how do you know the paper genealogy and biology match? The rule of thumb for NPEs is 2-5% per generation. Using the most generous value, and about 15 generations since the mid-16th century, there's a (1-0.02)^15 = 73.9% chance there wasn't a NPE.

Re: Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 31 Aug 2011 7:01AM GMT
Classification: Query
Thanks for your reply. I have done some more reading and now I understand the result much better, I actually think it is more interesting to belong to a haplogroup that is rare in the location of my recent ancestors. As for your questions, my test was done by FT-DNA and was confirmatory. I think they are reputable even though there were some irregularities in my case (my results took 5 months rather than the promised 4-5 weeks).

Re: Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 1 Sep 2011 12:34PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 1 Sep 2011 12:34PM GMT
You're right, if you have any close matches who aren't J2, they're not really matches. If you have any suspected relatives who test, that will quickly weed out non-relatives.

I'd guess the delay was because you're in a rarer haplogroup. They can reliably estimate the haplogroup if there are already plenty of prior testers with similar haplotypes. Since they guarantee a haplogroup designation, they probably ran a backbone test to verify your results. That's the only way they can confirm your haplogroup, unless you had a Deep Clade test or appropriate individual SNPs.

I hope you have some matches, I have no close matches beyond 12 markers.

Re: Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 8 Apr 2013 12:36AM GMT
Classification: Query
I just got my results and had the same questions as you. Blond hair, blue eyes typical Anglo-saxon stock (with some Norman and Viking thrown in there), and I can also trace most parts of my family back to >1500, including Paternal line (Smith!) which is the one that has thrown up M-172 as a result.
I was also sceptical that maybe there was a fault, but then I looked into the fat there are a fair few M-172s in the UK, and started to research a bit.
I've looked into it some more and have three theories:
Most Likely: ROMANs did it. Someone from the Med came over with the Romans and impregnated a local, or settled. Quite likely actually. This was afterall some thousand and a half years before I can trace my Smith family, hundreds of years before surnames started, and loads of time for the mediterranean traights to be bred away and replaced by anglo-saxon. This is a very reasonable explanation, the Roman influence on the UK was massive.
2nd Most Likely: PHOENECIANs or Someone else from bible-country coming over on a Phoenecian boat. It's pretty well known that there was extensive trading between them and the british isles, especially for tin. All those legends of Joseph of Arimathea coming to the UK etc etc.
3rd option (starting to get quite unlikely..): Accoriding to ancient British (welsh) legend there were two major migrations from places where M-172 is from during pre-biblical times. Firstly - from UR (Syria), by a King Albin (see. Albion) and his followers some x000 years ago. Secondly, from Troy (Turkey) led by Brutus (see. Britain). Either could have brought the bloodline. But this gets into the realm of legend and lots of dodgy pseudo-history. The most compelling things I could find about this were written by Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett, who also claim that this is the line of king arthur etc... so go figure! However, then I can't explain why such a thin M-172 thread should survive in amongst the much more broadly used British/Welsh/Celt haplogroups, unless they were some kind of ruling elite...

Re: Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 8 Apr 2013 3:03AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 8 Apr 2013 3:13AM GMT
I'm going to expand a little on what Nathan mentioned. Even though your YDNA put you in a specific haplogroup, that only represents a teenie bit of what's you. For example, suppose a Yemeni orphan was indeed adopted by Germans in the 1400s. That orphan was then raised as German and married a German, then their kid married a German and so forth, and by the time it gets to you all that Yemeni DNA is pretty much gone except for what's left in your Y chromosome.

To put it closer to home, we don't come from just one haplogroup. For example, I've done Y-DNA and am predicted to be R1b1a2. Taking that further, my grandfather on my father's side would be the same. However, if I were to test my grandfather on my mother's side, I know based on her background that it would be different (I plan to test an uncle to confirm that). Is his contribution to "me" any less than my father's father? And of course, let's not forget the mtDNA haplogroups. You can take this analogy further and further back, and with the U.S. being such a melting pot there is no telling how many different haplogroups you came from. That doesn't mean the test is useless. It's actually very useful on the "macro" level in tracing name origins, population movements and so forth, and as far as genealogy in finding surname matches and so forth.

Nathan - I guess my male line was more prolific than yours, or at least more inclined to take DNA tests. I have over 1000 exact matches at 12 markers, and 30 or so at 25!

David Mc

Re: Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 8 Apr 2013 6:58AM GMT
Classification: Query
I had kind of gotten away from this, but recently thought of one possibility that had not yet been mentioned. How frequent is this haplotype (J2-M172) among European jews? After all, this is one ethnic group with a middle eastern origin which has lived in northern Europe for a very long time. And interbreeding with non-jews was pretty common during certain periods too. Wouldn't that be the simplest way this marker could get into our DNA?

Re: Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 8 Apr 2013 6:58AM GMT
Classification: Query
I had kind of gotten away from this, but recently thought of one possibility that had not yet been mentioned. How frequent is this haplotype (J2-M172) among European jews? After all, this is one ethnic group with a middle eastern origin which has lived in northern Europe for a very long time. And interbreeding with non-jews was pretty common during certain periods too. Wouldn't that be the simplest way this marker could get into our DNA?

Re: Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 9 Apr 2013 4:40AM GMT
Classification: Query
THE Y-DNA haplogroup ONLY provides information about one line - your father, his father, his father and so on. No grandmothers and no other line. The simplest explanation is sometimes the correct one. At some point on your father line there is what is called an NPE (non parental event). It can be an adoption, an illegitimate child, a child fathered by a man not the recorded husband of the mother... You get the picture. Since the haplogroup goes back for thousands of years, it can have happened at any time from one generations ago to one hundred.

Re: Mismatch - haplotype J2-m172

Posted: 9 Apr 2013 5:35AM GMT
Classification: Query
Sure, but it could also have been a perfectly "legitimate" event-a parental event. One of our male ancestors in central or western Europe was a man who was, or who descended from a diaspora Jew, perhaps one who had converted to Christianity to better "fit in". I certainly could never prove that all my male ancestors were gentile and Christian. Upon reflection, I actually find it odd that this haplotype is as rare as it is in northwestern Europe.
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