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Willem Ottensz b. ca 1440

Willem Ottensz b. ca 1440

Posted: 17 Jan 2009 4:41PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: van arkel, Ottensz, Ottenz, Ottens, van aefferden,
Hi

There is something I can't quite figure out about this man. Willem Ottensz was born in Middelkoop about 1445 and died about 1504. He married Marij Hendricks and later Margriet Cornelis VAN AEFFERDEN.

But here's the question in some places he is listed as the son of Ot N.N and Jacobje N.N, but other sources say that he is the son of Otto van Arkel and Marigjen Everitsen.

Does anyone know which parents who are the right ones?

Best regards

Re: Willem Ottensz b. ca 1440

Posted: 17 Jan 2009 4:51PM GMT
Classification: Query
I do not know how much of your data is from original real sources. Without those no definite answer can be given.
Do you know that N.N. is short for the latin words Nomen Nescio (Name not known)? Maybe you are wrtiting about 2 different people.

Re: Willem Ottensz b. ca 1440

Posted: 17 Jan 2009 5:12PM GMT
Classification: Query
These data has been taken from the internet that's why I wonder which of them is right. He can't have four parents!

In one source the parents are listed as Ot N.N (lastname not known...) and Jacobje NN (lastname not known) in another they ar listed as Otto van Arkel and Margitje.

Do you know.

Re: Willem Ottensz b. ca 1440

Posted: 17 Jan 2009 5:41PM GMT
Classification: Query
Things from the internet always need to be taken with a grain of salt. As long as the originsl documents are not seen by yourself (or a trusted person) nothing can be said about the truth. Why do you not contact the owners of the internet sites where you found it?

Re: Willem Ottensz b. ca 1440

Posted: 1 Feb 2013 11:25PM GMT
Classification: Query
Well actually i have done a lot of research on this person.

First we need a bit of history of the van Arkel family... The family was very wealthy and owned a massive amount of land in the midst of the netherlands and in france (Bar Pierrepont), also they were first in line to inherit the lands of van Cleef.. So Jan van arkel (Otto the bastard van arkel's dad) declared himself a lord... the lords of Holland and Gelre didn't like that and war broke out.. the rest of the story you can find here : http://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkelse_Oorlogen
At the end, the van Arkels lost and were stripped of most of their lands (holland an gelre divided it between themselves) and got stripped of their titles and apart from a daughter and a couple of bastard children the van Arkel line died out...

The reason people think (including me) that Willem Ottensz is the son of Otto the bastard van Arkel is because of a couple of points...
First of all this document which proves Otto had a son called Willem :
Een huis en hofstede (1645: met boomgaard) en 2½ morgen in het gerecht Deil, enerzijds: Floris van Beesd (1578: boven: erven Herbaren de Cock met Bakelbos), anderzijds: Gijsbert Pieck van Beesd (1578: de heren van het klooster Jerusalem te Culemborg).
29-12-1466: Otto de bastaard van Arkel met ledige hand, AGH., inv.nr. 151 fol. 74.
19-6-1476: Willem, zoon van Otto, bastaard van Arkel, bij dode van zijn vader, AGH., inv.nr. 718 c. Asperen fol. 11v

http://www.hogenda.nl/wp-content/plugins/hogenda-search/down...

Also, Willem Ottensz had siblings who were burgers of utrecht, we know Otto also lived atleast a part of his life there since he is buried there.

The 3rd point is that willem Ottensz (Ottensz means Otto's son, Ot is just a shorter version of Otto) owned a massive amount of land in the land of van Arkel that they were allowed to keep/rent and was very wealthy, he even was ordered to build a watchtower with 3 holes.

The 4th point was his son Claes Willem Ottensz' spouse... The van Afferden were of lower nobility at that time... her granddad was ambtman of rheden (the one who takes the counts place when he is not there) and his dad was ontvanger-generaal(the head of all the finances and taxes) of the county of Gelre, his dad again was mayor of the city of Gelre... We know she was a servant of the Ottensz family, but not the kind of peasant servant...
it was common at that time to send your daughter to work as a servant for some time to another noble family to teach them woman things and manners, like boys were sent to other nobles to have them educated and trained as a knight.
So the van Afferden were not exactly poor or low status, so they would have never let her marry just a simple commoner...

The 5th point is the act of inheritance of Claes Willems Ottensz...
I've never seen it for myself but it was very richly decorated and stately looking according to some sources...

And finally the 6th point is that Willems father is sometimes called Ot the miller... a miller was in that time(and long after) a synonim of bastard in dutch

Well still i don't know for certain, but everything points in the direction of Willem Ottensz being Otto the bastard's son... :)
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