Jean (Jacques) CAMIRÉ (Camerer) - m.bef.1789 in Quebec - Marguerite GUIGNARD
Looking for marriage and parents for Jean (Jacques) CAMIRÉ (Camerer) & Marguerite GUIGNARD.
Their Elizabeth CAMIRÉ (Camerer) m.1810 parish Ste-Geneviève de Berthier, Berthierville, Québec, Canada with Joseph "dit VALOIS" (no parents-illegitimate).
If someone has figured out who's Joseph (dit) VALOIS's parents are, it would be appreciated too.
Thanks in advance!
Re: Jean (Jacques) Camiré (Camerer) - m.bef.1789 in Quebec - Marguerite Guignard
From my research, I would say the Camerer family is unrelated to the Camire family.
Jacques-Christophe Cammerer from "ville de Gota en Allemagne" (Germany) married Marguerite Guignard January 17, 1785 at St-Jean-Port-Joli,L'Islet Co.,Quebec,Canada.
Jacque's parents were Jacques-Christophe Cammerer and Suzanne Schenneder.
Marguerite Guignard's parents were Jean Guignard and Elisabeth Nadeau who were married April 13, 1750 at Berthier-en-Bas,Montmagny Co.,Quebec,Canada.
It is difficult to look up this family due to the numerous spellings (Cammerer,Camerer,Cameraire,Crainer....), a probably incomplete list of some of their children are:
Pierre who was listed as present at their marriage. Pierre was born illegitimate and was probably the Pierre with unnamed parents baptised in St-Jean-Port-Joli on November 13, 1784.
Marie-Marguerite born and baptised February 25, 1787 at St-Jean-Port-Joli.
Marie-Elisabeth born August 20, 1788 and baptised the next day at La Pocatiere,Kamouraska Co,.Quebec,Canada.
Charles born and baptised November 16, 1790 at St-Jean-Port-Joli. Charles married Marie-Anne Valois.
Jean-Moise born December 14, 1795 and baptised the next day at St-Jean-Port-Joli. Moise married Francoise Valois.
Marguerite born September 11, 1802 and baptised the next day at Berthier-en-Haut,Berthier Co.,Quebec,Canada. Marguerite married Edouard Mathe October 17, 1820 in Sorel.
Francois-Xavier December 3, 1804 and baptised the next day at Berthier-en-Haut,Berthier Co.,Quebec,Canada. Francois married Judith Carpentier April 19, 1825 in Sorel,Richelieu Co.,Quebec,Canada.
Genevieve who married David Brisset January 15, 1828 in Sorel.
Joseph Valois was born March 6, 1788 in St-Cuthbert,Berthier Co.,Quebec,Canada. His parents were Joseph Valois and Marie Houde who married February 3, 1777 at Berthier-en-Haut,Berthier Co.,Quebec,Canada. [Note: This is from the process of eliminating all other Joseph Valois as possibilities. Additionally, this Joseph Valois is the only one baptised at St-Cuthbert prior to 1800. The remote possibility of another Joseph Valois with no baptismal record does exist.]
Thank you + note about Joseph dit Valois
Thank you very much...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Variation I wrote are based on the variations found in church records... and there are a few more others...lol
I have the Valois family you are talking about... their son is not the one who married in the Camerer family... Joseph born 1788 died 1815-05-29 in St-Cuthbert at age 25 and still single...
As per record the Joseph I am looking for is an "illegitimate" child... I just don't know if he was really a Valois or was just raised by one of the Valois family... witnesses for him at his marriage were Louis Valois & Augustin Glatus...
2 of Elizabeth Camere's brother also married Valois, 2 sisters who were daughters of Louis Valois & Geneviève Martin...
The Louis Valois present at Joseph's marriage was probably the father of the 2 sisters... I believe that Joseph was raised by them, which is why official church records show his surname as being "dit Valois" rather than just "Valois"... though it is still possible he might be the illegitimate child of one of the Valois... but he could also be an abandonned child or the illegitimate child of any other relative or friend of the family and not be a Valois at all...
I have two other spellings for you that I have found.
Kamerer and Quemeneur.
Her marriage to Eloi (Edward) Matte (not Mathe) shows her parents as Jean-Baptiste Quemenuer and Marguerite Dinard (another spelling for Guignard??
I thought this might help you locate other family members. The Sorel records must be distorted and written by someone who had trouble spelling.
Quemeneur is not a normal variation for that surname... the Quemeneur family predates the Camerer/Camire family...
The 1st Quemeneur was François Quémeneur dit Laglamme (Hervé & Françoise Joseph) of Ploudaniel, Brest, St-Pol-de-Léon, Bretagne... was already here in 1694... m.1700-11-15 St-François, Ile d'Orléans, Qc with Marie Madeleine Chamberland...
Either the priest missunderstood the name and wrote down the closest name he knew that sounded similar to what he thought he had heard... or this person is not from the same family... though in this case it looks more like an error of surname...
Dinard is a "dit name" associated with the surname Han/Hans/Hanhan dit Chaussé dit Dinard... a couple of them also used Guignard for a reason we don't really know... Guignard being a surname on its own and not a "dit name"... the Dinard - Guignard switch is most probably due to misspronounciation, since if you say both like if you had something in your mouth, the 2 will become totaly undistinguable from each other... don't know if you speak french well enough to try it, but if you do you will understand right away what I mean...
There are quite a few surnames and dit names in french who are sources of errors and confusion, either because they belong to multiple family groups or because there are other names that are phoneticaly close to them and get often confuse with one another...
I wouldn't get too hung up on spellings. All Indo-European languages were spoken far before they were written. The first writings are all phonetically spelled out by the writer. There were no standardized spellings. This was true with common simple words as well as complicated names. Over time as more people have become literate, language spellings have slowly become more standardized. (The process still isn't complete. Several years ago a couple friends of mine, one from the US and one from England, spent nearly two hours arguing the proper spelling of the word color/colour.)
The vast majority of our ancestors were not literate. They could say their name but not speak it. When a parish priest wrote down a record, he spelled it how it sounded. There were no proper or inproper spellings. (In America the color blue was spelled blue, bleu, blew, bloo, blu; all which were considered proper at the time.)
The region a parish priest came from in France also dictated how he "sounded out" his spelling. Some regions of France used "F" while others used "PH". The endings "EAU", "OT" and "O" are all used interchangably depending on the priest. Some included aspired "H" and some did not. I could write enough examples to fill a good sized book.
I've seen people waste countless hours by putting their spelling "blinders" on. I once saw a news group board get hijacked by people arguing for nearly a month over the proper spelling of a name. The reality was that there was no proper spelling because the ancestor couldn't write.
The PRDH patronym dictionary lists 54 variations of Quemeneur and uses Quemeneur as its standardized version. The spellings most used in order of times used by parish priests are as follows:
1) Kemmener 457
2) Quemeneur 266
3) Quemineur 100
4) Kemner 52
5) Kemeneur 40
The Jacques Cammerer family from Germany is not related to the Kemmeners that arrived from Brittany. Unfortunately, today the PRDH has lumped them together as the same standardized name because the parish priests confused the two back then.
The Camire name is a variation of Comire. The Comires descend from Nicolas Comire a "faux-saulnier" sent to Quebec in 1733 with his family. The Camire/Kemmener confusion was caused by the parish priest .
Matte is the PRDH standardized version of the 15 versions of Matte/Mathe et al. The spellings most used in order of times used by parish priests are as follows:
1) Matte 1011
2) Mathe 751
3) Mat 547
4) Math 169
5) Matth 88
Eloi's birth record has the spelling as Mate. His marriage record (under the name Edouard) has the spelling as Mathe. Eloi's father Theodore had his last name spelled nearly every possible way in his lifetime.
What you say is probably true, but that is the spellings in the church registers.
On another note, I have cousins named Robitaille. They were born in Lowell, MA. Their great-grandfather was Octave Robitaille b. abt 1854 in Quebec (don't have his wife's name. His son's name was Theodore Robitaille married to Eva Matte in Lowell, MA in 1923 (they were my great uncle and aunt)
I have also discovered two more spelling variations
Based on DNA testing they are also Matte descendants.
Re: Name variations and "dit names"
Indeed. There have also been ideas about Cormier being a linked family, when again, there is no proof of this, only occassions of human errors that make it appear so.
Also, more than a decade ago, when doing genealogy the "old-fashioned way" resources from the Latter Day Saints had the variation "Quemire" with known, documented Comire ancestors.
This too is not a deviation or derivation of the family name, but a human translation or transcription error.
Perhaps the moral of the story is to always use Soundex...
It would be advantageous to know more of the dit names and how those families link back into Comire/Camire. For example, many of Nicholas' descendants were "dit Vincent" and still others were "dit Marchand" (my line).
Looking forward to hearing about your "dit" lines.
Rebecca Comire Wilcox
Jacques Christophe Keammerer (Camarere, Camaraire)
KAEMMERER, Andreas : Anhalt-Zerbst, régiment du capitaine Schwartzburg, natif de Gotha, 22 years, 6 years 4 months of service (MG 13), born Gotha. He is most probably Jacques Christophe Camerer, son of Jacques-Christophe & Suzanne Schneider, de la ville de Gotha en Thuringe, who married Marguerite Guignard.
source : V. DeMarce : Mercenary Troops from Anhalt-Zerbst, p. 46 & 106 ; The Settlement of Former German Auxiliary Troops in Canada, p. 79.