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Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Judi Oldridge (View posts)
Posted: 20 Sep 2001 4:22AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi, Elizabeth, I am descended from Joseph Carroll, Sr./born 1699 in Ulster and married to Lady Jennet Swance (not Swansey). He did indeed die in SC, but the county was Cravens, then, not York Co., as it was 10 yrs. later. I show 9 children, 1 bound boy and in his will of 1786 ( yes, I have a copy), other pertinent info as well. His wife Jennet, who he referred lovingly to as Jane (Jennet is an old name for Jennie) also left a will in 1796 and I have even more info. If you have ????, please e-mail me. Thanks! Judi O.

Re: Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Joy King (View posts)
Posted: 21 Sep 2001 12:45AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Swancey, Swords, Minton, Morris, Wright, Sizemore
Judi,

I'm a South Carolina Swancey descendant and have done extensive research on them beginning with my ancestor James Swancey, and his brother John, found in the SC records starting in 1756.

I'm also familiar with the references to Jennet/Jean Swance as the wife of Joseph Carroll but have yet to see any actual documentation from any descendants of this line. Can you tell me exactly what record confirms his wife's maiden name as Swance? This is the first time I've seen her referred to as Lady. What record confirms this title?

Joy

Re: Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Judi (View posts)
Posted: 21 Sep 2001 8:01PM GMT
Classification: Marriage
Joy, all of my original info came from my great half-uncle Robert Black of Clover, South Carolina. I have a copy of Lady Jennet Swance's will (she died 10 years after her husband, Joseph Carroll, Sr.) and this is the information that Robert verified through church and county records in Scotland and Ireland over 15 years ago! It seems that Joseph was a Royal Scottish borderguard and somehow managed to meet and fall in love with a lord's (or laird's ) daughter, Lady Jennet Swance. Needless to say, she was already pregnant when her dad found out and they were allowed to be married, but left soon after for the New World with her dowry in hand ( the dowry is mentioned in Joseph's will - I have that, too.) They did not actually leave until quite a few years later, but her family was off his back. He eventually took the land that was granted to his father, John , by William of Orange for John's courageous service ( this land lying in SC in the colonies) and had three more children with Jennet (an old form of the name Jennie) whom he lovingly called Jane til the day he died. I am thinking that the name confusion might have come from Joseph Elias Carroll, Jr's marriage to a Martha (Margaret) Swansea (pronounced Swansey). If you know my great half- uncle Robert Black out of Clover, SC, he would be glad to answer any ???? you might have. Hope this is some verification for you. Judi O.

Re: Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Joy King (View posts)
Posted: 22 Sep 2001 12:16AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Swancey, Swords, Minton, Morris, Wright, Sizemore
Judi,

What you have here is a nice story but without verifiable citations, for every statement you've made, it's nothing but speculation! I can tell you that Joseph Carroll's land was not previously granted to his father by William of Orange. There is nothing in any of the records to indicate either Joseph Sr. or Jr. had a middle name, and Joseph 3rd. was called Jerry.

Joseph Jr. md. Martha Jane Swancey, daughter of my James Swancey, and sister of my direct line Eleanor Swancey that md. John Swords. I can supply citations to anyone interested.

Joy

Re: Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Judi (View posts)
Posted: 24 Sep 2001 5:57AM GMT
Classification: Query
Joy, Sorry I seem to be a burr under your skin, but I am a South Carolina Carroll descendent and I think that you might be interested in going to http:/members.aol.com/bgandy007/genalgy/tmcsar.html for more info on the CARROLLS I am speaking of. Not only did Robert Black prove part of his info by copies from the Heraldic Archives of Ireland, Scotland, and England, but the Sons of the American Revolution, and a "History of the Watson Family in America" by Clayton Keith which includes quotes from the "History of the Carroll Family" seem to agree with the info of the land grant. I am very sorry if this offends you, but as another South Carolinian, you should know that my sources include the "Roster of South Carolina Patriots in the American Revolution" by Gilmer Moss (1983) page 150/W9778 - which states that the subject being spoken of is Joseph ELIAS Carroll (1746-1803), obviously Joseph Carroll, Jr. Perhaps we could speak again when you have taken a quick look at this information from others than myself. (By the way, would you please send me your definition of the word "citations"?) Thanks for your time. Judi

Re: Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Joy King (View posts)
Posted: 26 Sep 2001 12:12AM GMT
Classification: Query
Judi,

The burr, as you put it, is the proliferation of family history that does not contain verifiable source citations. This means the actual location, and specific records that were found showing the final conclusions being stated are correct and can be verified by other researchers. For additional information on citations you may want to read Elizabeth Shown Mills, EVIDENCE! CITATION & ANALYSIS FOR THE FAMILY HISTORIAN (Baltimore, Maryland: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1997).

I'm familiar with the statements made by Thomas M. Carroll in his S.A.R. papers. But what specific record verifies his claim, "Having received a land grant awarded to his Father, John Carroll, for services rendered in the Army of William, Prince of Orange, he settled in York district, South Carolina in 1750, and located his land claim in that district on Allison and Bullocks creeks and on the little Catawba River."?

Keith's, WATSON FAMILY IN AMERICA, quotes from Thomas M. Carroll's, HISTORY OF THE CARROLL FAMILY, which again has no verifiable source for his statements. So it appears Thomas M. Carroll is the only source cited for this information. As genealogist we have to separate fact from fiction and the facts don't fit this information.

In 1663 the present area of North & South Carolina were included in a grant from King Charles II to "Edward Earl of Clarendon; George, Duke of Albemarle; William, Earl of Craven; John, Lord Berkley; Anthony, Lord Ashley; Sir George Carteret, Sir John Colleton, and Sir William Berkeley, all the country between the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, between 31° and 36° parallels of latitude, called Carolina, in honor of Charles." This Carolina was divided into North & South Carolina in 1693.
Source: John Hill Wheeler, HISTORICAL SKETCHES OF NORTH CAROLINA FROM 1584-1851 (1851; reprint, Baltimore, Maryland: Regional Publishing Co., 1964), 29-30.

The proprietors were given complete power over the area which included disbursement of the land. This proprietary government lasted until 1729 when, "the crown bought out seven of the eight proprietary shares. Carteret, who refused to sell, eventually received title to an area in North Carolina know as the Granville Tract."
Source: Robert M. Weir, COLONIAL SOUTH CAROLINA A HISTORY (1983; reprint, Columbia, South Carolina: University of South Carolina Press, 1997), 49-51; 102.

This pretty much shows the problem with Thomas M. Carroll's statement. Am I the only one that finds it unreasonable to think a man that emigrated to America by 1741 would wait more than 10 years to move to (then) NC to claim land "three miles square" that was granted to his father? The records show a much more modest amount of land that was apparently acquired by the usual methods of warrant, survey, grant, or purchase by deed from another owner.

The first land records I have for Joseph Carroll, Sr. are from, Brent H. Holcomb, NORTH CAROLINA LAND GRANTS IN SOUTH CAROLINA (1980; reprint, Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1999).

P.17 [Anson Co.]: JOSEPH KERRAL File no. 0337- Plat: Surveyed for Joseph KERRAL 100A on S side Catawba River, on a branch of Fishing Creek...Samuel YOUNG's corner...Pr Samuel YOUNG, Dep. Sur. March 1, 1755- No CB

Ibid. File no. 0338- Plat: Survd for JOSEPH KERRAL, 100A on a branch of Fishing Creek...adj. Samuel YOUNGs corner...Pr Saml YOUNG March 1, 1755 Charles BETTY & Saml COBRUN, chain bearers.

P.54 [Mecklenburg Co.]- JOSEPH CARROL File no.1350 (623); Gr. no.23; Bk.18. p.254 (17,280)- Plat: Surveyed for Joseph CARROL, 220A on forks of Allisons Creek adj. John BARR, Wm. MACKILMURRY, John VENEBEL & his own land...18 May 1766. William DICKSON, Sur.- Wm. MACKILMURREY, JOSEPH CARROL, JR., C.B. Iss. 25 Sept. 1766.

Anson County was formed from Bladen in 1750; Mecklenburg from Anson in 1763; Tryon from Mecklenburg in 1769. Since the final dividing line between NC & SC was not established until 1772, there were many NC grants that were then located in SC. I have found many records for this Carroll family in Anson/Mecklenburg/Tryon counties of NC as well as present York Co., SC.

As for Joseph Carroll Jr., nothing I have found gives the middle name of Elias, or even an initial E. Does anyone have any document with an original signature on it?

White's, ABSTRACTS OF REV. WAR PENSION FILES p.555 has the following:
CARROLL, JOSEPH, MARTHA, W9778, SC Line, sol was a son of JOSEPH CARROLL, SR., sol lived in York Dist SC at enl, sol m MARTHA SWANCY or SWANSEY 28 Feb 1771 & sol d. 17 Feb 1803, wid appl 26 Jan 1846 York Dist SC aged 92, children were; Samuel b in Jan 1772, Elizabeth b 4 Oct 1774, Je(torn)et 6 Nov 1776, Sarah b 20 Mar 1778, Joseph b 15 Sep 1781, John 2 Feb 1784, Henry b 19 Jun 1799 & Isabella b date ?

Also found in SC-DAR Bible Records, pp.46-47
Bible of: JOSEPH CARROLL - York Co., SC
Joseph Carroll . . . Son of Joseph Carroll, Sr., who died during the War of 1776.
Born 17 March 1746, died 17 Feb. 1803
Married 28 Feb. 1771 to Martha Swansey born 6 Jan. 1752, died 13 July 1849
Children:
Samuel Carroll...Son born 6 January 1772
Elizabeth Carroll...Daughter born 4 October 1774
Jennet Carroll...Daughter born 6 Nov. 1776
Sarah Carroll...Daughter born 20 March 1778
Joseph Carroll...Son born 15 Sept. 1781...He was called Jerry
John Carroll...Son born 19 June 1784
Henry Carroll... Son born 19 June 1789, died 14 Dec. 1853
Isabelle Carroll... Daughter born ??? [No date listed for her jk.]

"My father Joseph Carroll was a Sergeant during the Revolution under Gen. Thomas Sumter and fought in the Battles of Cowpens, Hanging Rock and Rocky Mount.". . . Henry Carroll
My mother, Martha Carroll died in Union County, NC [sic JK]

Tombstone at Bethany A.R.P Church in York Co., SC
Joseph Carroll- Died- 17 Feb. 1803- In his 57th year
Martha Carroll- Died- 13 July 1849- In her 97th year
Henry Carroll- Died- 14 Dec. 1853- In his 65th year

I hope this answers some of you questions.

Joy

Re: Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Judi (View posts)
Posted: 29 Sep 2001 5:01AM GMT
Classification: Query
Joy, it seems that you want to believe the accounts you have read in books and I want to believe the accounts I have read in books of my 8 and 9 great -grandfathers. As for an unreasonable length of time to move from Pennsylvania to the Carolinas, isn't that just a personal opinion ( in which case, everyone is entitled to the same privilege..)? When old Joseph Carroll, Sr. wrote his will in 1777, he left more than 800 "listed" acres, as well as three plantations to his sons, Thomas, Joseph, and Samuel. I have copies of the Bible records of Joseph Carroll and have walked thru the graves of my family at Bethany A.R. P. Church many times. Perhaps, this conversation is futile, but for the sake of long distance relations, I just want to say that you may believe what you like, and I shall do the same. Thank you for the book references, although famous names do not impress me with their ability to research their books in a more competent and reliable manner than less well known authors. Again, thank you for your time. Judi

Re: Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Posted: 1 Oct 2001 2:33PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 9 Apr 2002 3:15PM GMT
Actually Joseph Carroll had two Wills (I have both), one which was made in 1777 and the other in 1784. Because of these two Wills a big mess occurred and the inventory and and settlement of his estate did not get started until 1795. This is shown in the miniutes of Court of Pleas and Quarter Sessions beginning Oct 1788.

Re: Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Pati Carlton (View posts)
Posted: 2 Oct 2001 3:56AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Carroll
Judi: I am a descendent of Joseph E. Carroll, Sr. through Thomas, Matthew, Jane Carroll Wills. I would love to receive any other family information that you could share.
Thanks. Patti

Re: Joseph Carroll, Sr. /Lady Jennet Swance

Judi (View posts)
Posted: 3 Oct 2001 6:16AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Carroll
Pati, May I suggest the wonderful address at http://members.aol.com/bgandy007/genealgy/tmcsar.html for all kinds of Carroll info!. Also, send along your snail mail address and an SASE ( large manila envelope, please) with a reminder note and I will send you copies of the Joseph Elias Carroll, Sr. and Lady Jennet Swance wills that I have. Good hunting! Judi PS! Did you know that your Matthew was named after a cousin that resided in Joseph, Sr.'s house as a bound boy? I take it he was very much a part of the family! J, again.
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