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Relationship between English and French arms

Relationship between English and French arms

Posted: 5 Jan 2013 9:45PM GMT
Classification: Query
Can anyone confirm examples of English Norman families using devices to distinguish between their branch and the senior branch in France. One posible is the family of de Pyn with estates in Devon from 1150's with same arms as de Pins family in France but with addition of ermine chevron. Would that be a typical or likely move?
Jeremy

Re: Relationship between English and French arms

Posted: 6 Jan 2013 11:32AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 6 Jan 2013 11:32AM GMT
Yes, that is something that has occurred. The best known example that I know of are the arms of one of duke William's Flemmish allies in 1066 - the Counts of Boulogne (Flanders, not France) whose arms appear in the Bayeux Tapestry - Or three Torteaux. These arms are also used by the current Earl of Devon with the surname of Courtenay. They also appear in the fairly modern arms of a bloodline relative, but with the addition of a Bordure and a Chevron.
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Re: Relationship between English and French arms

Posted: 6 Jan 2013 1:34PM GMT
Classification: Query
Thanks for that , the Courtenay example is apt as the de Pyn's in Devon owed fealty to the Courtenay's at one point in Devon.
Surprised at the ref to arms in the Bayeux tapestry, understood the consensus was that the evidence was that there was no meaningful use of specific arms that early and only really came in from later in the 12th century.

Re: Relationship between English and French arms

Posted: 7 Jan 2013 2:35AM GMT
Classification: Query
Certainly a contentious subject. However, it has been firmly established that hereditary 'arms' were first used on 9th century seals. From there they graduated to being displayed on lance pennons and it is these pennons that are depicted on the Bayeux Tapestry. Most, if not all, of the lance pennons with 'heraldic designs' are carried by the Flemish contingent of duke William's invading army.

The subject is more fully examined in the book "Origns of Heraldry" (ISBN 0-906650-00-3) by Beryl Platts (1980) which traces the Flemish families involved with the Battle of Hastings. She subsequently produced two more books, "Scottish Hazard" in two volumes; Vol.1 - 'The Flemish Nobility and their Impact on Scotland' and Vol.2 - 'The Flemish Heritage', both of which further explain just how the arms of the Flemish aristocracy managed to appear in the earliest rolls of Scottish arms. Apparently there was quite a large exodus post-1066 from Flanders to Scotland and several Scottish families are of distinctly Flemish orign; the Lindsays who stem from the Flemish Alost family who appeared in the Bayeux Tapestry in the guise of Baldwin of Alost and his brother Gilbert of Ghent. Gilbert was the father of Walter de Lindsey, the founder of the Lindsay family name in Scotland.

Another Flemish family represented in the Bayeux Tapestry is that of Bethune (Hereditary Advocates of Boulogne) who founded the Scottish Beaton family. The arms of the two family branches only differed in the colour of the field, the Gules field in the Bethune arms being replaced with the Azure field in the Scottish Beaton arms.

There are another couple of lance pennons that are depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry that have been firmly established as eventually appearing in both English and Scottish early rolls of arms.
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