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Mystery of John Carroll´s wife and mother..

Mystery of John Carroll´s wife and mother..

Posted: 24 May 2002 9:56AM GMT
Classification: Query
John Carroll, son of Hugh and Anna Carroll m. either Susan Ward or Susan Carroll in the early 1850´s in Indian Territory.

Dr. Emmett Starr in his History of the Cherokeee Indians says John´s wife was Susan Carroll, the daughter of a Stephen Carroll and Nannie Ward.

GoodSpeed, History of Benton, Washington, Carroll, Madison, Crawford, Franklin, and Sebastian Counties, Arkansas. Chicago: The Goodspeed Publishing Co., 1889 says: Hon. John Carroll was reared on the frontier, and received his education by his own personal efforts, mostly among the Cherokee Indians. When his father removed to Missouri he (John) remained in the Indian Territory, and was married in the Cherokee Nation to Susan Ward, a quadroon. She died in 1856, leaving two children; Hugh, who was accidentally killed in 1885, at Vinita, where he resided, and Fincher, who now resides at Huntsville, Ark.
GoodSpeed said Susan "Ward" died and John m. Hulda Holcomb whereas a Dr. Emmett Starr says in his book, History of the Cherokee, that John m. Susan Carroll and mentions no second wife, which he obviously has according to census records. At least GoodSpeed seems to have the second wife listed correctly.

Starr says nothing about Susie dying, but something surely happened to her as John shows up on later census records with their two children and a new wife named Hulda (Holcomb) and 2 new children supposedly with Hulda.

This is not my family, and I have no bias either way? This has nothing to do with NA roots, nor my Shelton line other than John Carroll´s mother might possibly have been a Shelton. The only reason I am researching Carroll is to try to find out the maiden name of Hugh Carroll´s wife, Anna. In researching for Anna, I have accumulated quite a lot of Carroll info but no actual proof of John´s mother or wife.

Having said that, I would like to identify John´s wife correctly. I am mainly trying to reconcile the different accounts from Starr and GoodSpeed with the fact that John Carroll is shown on the 1860 census with Children Hugh and John Fincher and a "new" wife named Hulda and two children supposedly with Hulda. He shows up on later census records still with Hulda and has additional children. This would imply that either he divorced, or Susan left or possibly died.

I have no idea which is correct. I have ordered Starr´s books , but it will take some time to get them and see what more I can uncover.

I would like to know if any Carroll researcher can verify Johns wife and also am very interested in verifying the name of John´s mother. I am aware of all the book info, but want something more substantial.

Duane Mills
Stavanger, Norway

Re: Mystery of John Carroll´s wife and mother..

Carroll Patterson (View posts)
Posted: 28 May 2002 1:55PM GMT
Classification: Query
Duane,
At least two of us are also trying to solve this mystery. Both of us have the same info you mentioned plus the oral family tradition of having Cherokee blood some where in the family lines. The Hon. John may have been a cousin of my ancestor DeRosey Carroll who lived in Charleston, AR and was killed by Jawhawkers in 1863. So far I have not been able to confirm this. Have you found additional info. yet?--Carroll

Re: Mystery of John Carroll´s wife and mother..

Katy (View posts)
Posted: 28 May 2002 2:26PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi again Carroll, I have emailed Duane with the Emmett Starr info., and he has ordered the book. My question in all this is why Hugh Carroll, moved his family onto the Cherokee reservation in IT OK., and apparently lived there until he shows up on the 1860 census in McDonald Co. Mo. Were the Carroll's pure Celtic as is stated in Goodspeed histories?, if so why did they move to and live in IT, and why does Goodspeed list the wife of Hon. John Carroll as Susan Ward, but Emmett Starr states she was Susie Carroll, daughter of a Stephen Carroll. I am wondering now if Hugh and Stephen are related, could they have been brothers? This is a real mystery. Katy

Re: Mystery of John Carroll´s wife and mother..

duane mills (View posts)
Posted: 28 May 2002 3:01PM GMT
Classification: Query
Carroll and Katy,

The GoodSpeed reference was printed in 1889, supposedly with the input of the Carroll Clan as a lot of different sons and grandsons of Hugh are mentioned.

So far, I have found that most of GoodSpeeds info on the Carrolls seems to be mostly correct. If John did not die until 1895, then presumabably he knew what was printed and would have corrected any mistake on his first wife.

I have not seen the Starr book, but understand from NA researchers that he is considered a superstar, at least about Cherokee research.

I have found nothing that would make me think any of the Carroll´s were indian. I think Hugh was acting for the US government in moving them to IT and may or may not have had indian sympathies. If some of his children were partly raised in IT, then I can understand they could become attached to the Cherokee.

As to whether Hugh and Stephen were related, I have no idea. I do know:

1830 Census East Tennessee, by Byron Sistler (Evanston, III: Byron Sistler & Associates, 1969), p. 53. Grainger Co., p. 367, line 7 Shelton, James 201001-121101

There is a Hugh Carroll residing near this James Shelton in 1830 Grainger:

p.367, line 22 Carroll, Hugh 20002-0001

1840: Hugh Carrol, Barry Co., Missouri, p. 040 (6) Sugar Creek Twp.
2-1-0-0-0-1 males 0-0-1-0-0-1 females
NOTE: (This is now part of McDonald Co. was still actually a part of Barry Co., MO in 1840. When McDonald Co. was formed, Barry Co. lost this area)

This may not be the same Hugh Carroll as Hugh was 36 and his wife was 30 in 1840. The 1840 census shows only 4 children total. By 1850 when he was only 46, Hugh has 8 children living with him and 5 are over 10 years old. These children do not tally in 1840? In addition, in 1840 Ralph and John Carroll would have been under 15 or so-John would have been 12 so would have been home so the 1840 census should presumabably show 7 children.

As I said at the start, I am mainly interested in Hugh Carrolls wife, Anna, but Carrolls are an interesting family.

Duane Mills
Stavanger, Norway

Emmett Starr

Loren Carroll Clayton (View posts)
Posted: 29 May 2002 12:51AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: CLAYTON/CARROLL
Katy,
Please tell me how I can get the book by Emmett Starr. I've been wanting more information on him for some time. My e-mail address is claytonjo@earthlink.net

Re: Emmett Starr

duane (View posts)
Posted: 29 May 2002 4:35AM GMT
Classification: Query
You can order the book at:

Cherokee Nation Gift Shop
P.O. Box 948
Tahlequah, OK 74465
1-800-256-2123

I do not know the price.

Duane Mills

Re: Mystery of John Carroll´s wife and mother..

Posted: 30 Jul 2002 6:27PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 25 Jan 2003 5:57PM GMT
We have a Carroll mystery in our own family. The name Hugh, the state of Missouri are included in it. I have put off researching this branch of the family because it is difficult to do.

My great-grandmother Ellen Carroll, b. abt. 1860s, shows up in New York at age 15, marries my then 32-year-old great-grandfather Robert Thomson in NYC and settles in Queens County, Long Island, NY. Robert Thomson, who owned a tea-totaling tavern owner, sold it after marrying Ellen and resumed his former trade of mason. They had 10 children. Ellen died in 1920 at the age of abt. 60.

Not much is known about Ellen. She was thought to be from Missouri, her parent or parents died young, leaving the Carroll children. Her brother Hugh supposedly came to New York with another brother and "dumped" her off in NYC, we presumed as part of the orphan train deal. Then, Hugh and his brother return to the midwest territory never to be seen or heard from again. The Ellen-was-dumped-off-by-her-brothers story is infamous in the family.

My Aunt Flo believes she was born in Kansas City, Mo. but won't swear on it. I am only now locating a death certificate for her as she was listed incorrectly as Ellen (Carroll) Thomas, not Thomson.

Do these names mean anything to you?

Valerie Hill

Re: Mystery of John Carroll´s wife and mother..

Posted: 30 Jul 2002 6:28PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 25 Jan 2003 5:57PM GMT
An omitted detail- Ellen's father's name according to family was John.
Valerie Hill

Re: Mystery of John Carroll´s wife and mother..

Posted: 30 Jul 2002 6:34PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 25 Jan 2003 5:57PM GMT
Hi Carroll
I posted to the author of the original Mystery.... post. Please read it if you don't mind. Please add the fact that a John Carroll is the supposed name of the father of my Hugh and Ellen Carroll- and supposedly all Irish.

Valerie Hill

Re: Mystery of John Carroll´s wife and mother..

duane mills (View posts)
Posted: 31 Jul 2002 4:43AM GMT
Classification: Query
First, I want to remind everyone that I am not a Carroll descendant, but am only chasing a lead that a Hugh Carroll possibly married into my Shelton line.

I can trace these Carrolls from TN to IT and MO and some are listed in GoodSpeed but I know nothing of the migration of a John to NY with orphans etc.

This Carroll line I am researching is interesting, but there were many Carrolls and probably most of them were Irish.

Sorry.

Duane Mills
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