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Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 5 Mar 2013 7:46PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt
I am wondering if someone can help me or direct me in the right direction. I am searching for records on my Great Grandmother Emma Hermann/Hermanns. I am having a hard time finding records on her and her family from Germany. Any ideas or help would be appreciated. I have heard that she traveled to the United States with a small child when she was about 15. I have asked family and they are not sure if she traveled with anyone other than a small child. I know when she met my great grandfather "Frederick Barnhardt" he made her give this child up for adoption. Not sure if I would ever find any info on the child that she gave up for adoption.

Emma Hermanns
DOB was abt 1893 in Germany
Death 4-30-25
The year of Immigration was 1908
She lived in Pocahontas, Iowa for awhile and also Big Stone City, South Dakota. She is buried in Pocahontas, Iowa.

She married my great grandfather Frederick Barnhardt
Frederick was born 1879 and died in 1959

Thank you

Re: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 7 Mar 2013 2:50AM GMT
Classification: Query
Is there an obit for Emma? Any indication of the names of her siblings or parents? Did she come to America with any other family member except the small child? There are a few possibilities on the immigration lists but not enough to pinpoint without more info.

Re: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 7 Mar 2013 3:36AM GMT
Classification: Query
I have been searching for her obit and gravestone and I am not coming up with anything. I know she died in Roberts county, Sd and they buried her in Pocahontas, Iowa but fo some reason I am not coming up with anything there. I tried searching for their marriage info on here and can't even come up with that. I know Emma and Fred married in Verndale, Mn in April, 10 1911 that is what it says in Fred Obit. I did find a passenger list for her on the Ellis Island website and it shows that she was born in Falda/Fulda Germany. There are other people on that passenger list with the same last name as her and born in Falda/Fulda too. Website below.

http://www.ellisisland.org/search/viewTextManifest.asp?MID=1...


I don't think she came here with her mother and father, but when I look at that passenger list it has a section on there that asks who you are coming to see and there address and she has her mother listed with an address of New York (at least that is what I make out). The other people on the passenger list have that same info. I am beginning to think that she didnt come here with a small child that she might have had the child after she got here.

Re: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 10 Mar 2013 5:35PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi...
(not related)

I see that Ellis Island passenger list differently; I see those particular Herman's as listed as US Citizens...look at the line in the middle across the top where it says: United States of America Citizen...it's when you get to passenger #14 [Eta Modest/Hodesh] that it switches to Germany/German - then mentions Fulda, etc. For passenger 15, [Kroes], we're back to "US Citizen". Passenger #14 has to explain where she's going as she's an 'alien' [see that column at the top far right] - the others (US citizens) don't have to list who they know in the US or where they're going.

What may help you to cut to the chase may be to go online and look up "Minnesota Official Marriage System (MOMS)" and order a copy of Fred & Emma's marriage certificate [#M7-100] for a cheap $9.00 + postage; MAYBE at the time they [the state or county] required birthdates, or parents names - I don't know. For a lousy 9 bucks, you might get lucky. Fred is listed there as Fred Charley BErnhardt (instead of BArnhardt) and Emma is listed as Emma Christina Herman; marriage date April 18, 1911, Wadena County.

If you look closely at the 1925 Iowa State Census, for Fred & Emma in Grant, Pocahontas [image 43], you'll see on the next page [image 44] where they ask each household member who their parents are, how old the parents are, and where the parents were born (and married). Fred lists John Barnhardt & Lena Lange; for Emma only her father's last name, Herman, is listed, and for her mother only the last name of "Delaffaf" is listed...whether that was spelled or transcribed correctly, who knows, but there's a clue as to her mother's maiden name. Maybe she didn't bother with her parents first names and ages because they were already dead...?? Or maybe whoever talked to the Census taker just wasn't sure.

According to that 1925 Iowa State Census, Emma claims she's age 33 - birth would be about 1892. I found a NY passenger list with an Emma Herman, age 18, single, born about 1891, listed as the niece of (transcribed by Ancestry as) "Carotens Terlefs", age 66, departed from Hamburg and arrived March 8, 1909 on the ship Kaiserin Auguste Victoria. On the manifest it states she's from Lunden, Holstein, Germany. Seems to list her father as Fritz (?) Herrman. On this passenger list she is an 'alien'. Looks like her Uncle is listed as Citizen of the U.S.A. with "non-immigrant alien" stamped there?? Did this Uncle go to Germany to bring his niece Emma to the US? Is that 'your' Emma? I DON'T KNOW....but birth year/arrival year are close. And gee whiz, this Emma is from the same neck-of-the-woods (Holstein) that Fred was from (Holstein)....

Back to the 1925 Iowa Census - she claims to have been in the country 16 years as of 1925 [1925-16=1909], and in the state of Iowa for 14 years [1925-14=1911]; it would be nice to find her in a 1910 Census. Since she married in 1911 in Verndale, MN, wouldn't be surprised if she turns up in a 1910 MN Census. It's hard to tell, but on that NY passenger list, that particular Emma (with her Uncle) has to list their destination in the US; state & city - hard for me to make it out...but does it look like possibly "Minn" and "Varndal" (for Verndale)?...but IF this is her (and I am NOT sure), finding her or that Uncle in a 1910 Census may help if that's who she stayed with until her 1911 marriage in Verndale, MN - again, IF that's your Emma...And even if it isn't, an Emma Herman should be showing up somewhere in a 1910 Census if she arrived in 1908-09.

I did find an Emma "Harrmann", born about 1893 Germany, working as a servant in the Yanz household in Staples (Ward 2), Todd County, MN, which is 11 miles right down I-10 from Verndale. Seems a couple years too young, but people fudged their ages sometimes...plus, depends on who gave the Census taker the info.

Not sure any of the above guesswork is right - it's just that - a guess. But there's some reason why a 17-18 year old girl would come to New York and end up in the boonies of MN of all places, and it would probably be because some type of relative was already there. [And maybe I'm way off here too.]

Personally, I think obtaining a copy of their marriage certificate would maybe help more; hopefully, it contains a birth date and/or parents names on it.

Good luck,
Kat

Re: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 11 Mar 2013 2:20PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi there,

Thank you for all the digging that you have done on my Emma Herman. I found out last week that they were married in Verndale, MN so I went ahead and ordered a copy of their marriage certificate. I hope this will give me the additional info that I need.

I now see what you mean about the passenger list that I had listed. So, that is not my Emma. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

I do have some questions on the NY Passenger list that you said you found. Why is it that when I do a search for the passenger list and put in Emma Herman I don’t find what you did? I am sometimes a little overwhelmed by the searches on here and what they mean and how much info there is. When I did a search I didn’t find that info that you listed “Carotens Terlefs”, age 66 departed from Hamburg and arrived March 8, 1909 on the ship Kaiserin Auguste Victoria. On the manifest it states she's from Lunden, Holstein, Germany. Seems to list her father as Fritz (?) Herrman. On this passenger list she is an 'alien'. Looks like her Uncle is listed as Citizen of the U.S.A. with "non-immigrant alien" stamped there?? Did this Uncle go to Germany to bring his niece Emma to the US? (what am I doing wrong when I try and do this search to find this same info)

How do I search for just a 1910 census? Do I put her info in or her uncle “Carotens Terlefs”

I did ask my dad why he thought Fred and Emma got married in Vendale, MN and he said his only guess was that she had family living there. It would be interested to figure out how they met if Fred was living in Iowa and if Emma was living in MN.

As far as the clues on the 1925 census I did see how her father was listed as Herman and her mother Delaffaf…I wonder if Terlefs (uncle) could be same last name as Delaffaf or other way around. Be interesting to see if her mothers’ maiden name is on the marriage certificate so I can confirm that.

Again, thank you for the info that you have sent my way.
Tara

Re: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 12 Mar 2013 10:53AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi Tara...

Well, here's what I do; I don't always put a lot of stock on what is stated on Census's, draft registrations, etc. as far as "exact dates". There's just too many inconsistencies. So, for example, Emma claims she immigrated in 1908. Well, O.K., but I just don't totally trust it, so I search 1907 - 1909/10...

I've got many ancestors that just didn't seem to be so sure of when (or sometimes where) they were born! Seriously. Drives me nuts.

So, I search with a 1-5 year spread sometimes when it comes to dates, plus I try different spellings with names. Remember also, these people are [learning and] speaking English with a German accent too.....also, I worked for the US Census Bureau once, and I saw first hand how it was dealing with people sometimes (language barrier, can't remember, refuse to answer, guessing, etc.)

I'm not saying you're wrong on that passenger list you found, [or that I'm right], just that I read it differently - it may well be her, but maybe (?) this time it was just a trip to Germany and back to visit...but the other one I found kinda lines up with what you heard about her - that she probably came here without her parents. Yeah, maybe her Uncle went to Germany to get her and bring/escort her here and provided her a place to stay until she could get on her feet. Maybe her mother died and father was sick, or whatever, and she would have a better shot at life in the US - who knows?

But yeah, there's a reason why she (a young immigrant girl alone) would end up in the boonies of MN - like there was some family or family friend there, plus a German speaking community. And there's a reason why her and Fred married there too; there was a MN connection of some sort. [Didn't Fred's father die in MN 2 years after him and Emma were married?]

I found that "Emma Harrmann" in Staples (1910) by typing in 'Emma Herman', but being willing to look at alternate spellings for someone close in age, name, nationality, that was close to the Verndale area...(I use Google maps to get a grip on a particular area too).

[A LOT of my Foust ancestors are mis-transcribed here as 'Forest' - I've found several ancestors that way - by using the mis-transcribed spelling of their surname.]

Are you sure she came to the US via New York? Any chance she came in via Canada, Boston or Philly? Have you looked for passengers lists for those ports?

As for that particular passenger list I found, I'll have to try to find it again when I get home from work tonight, then I'll get back with you here.

My grandfather told me when I was a kid that his father came to the US [Boston] from Germany alone at age 14. It took me many months of searching before I finally found him; and sure enough, he did come alone at age 14 - and his last name was mis-transcribed. Eventually found his siblings too - they came alone also, and young. So, don't give up.

"How do I search for just a 1910 Census?" Well, I've done this a few times, and it IS time-consuming (and boring), but when I know that an ancestor was living in a certain area and I just can't find them by name (because it's probably been mis-transcribed), I search by district, then wade through every image for that district. Needless to say, easier to do for rural areas.

To use Verndale for example...I look it up on a map first to see what the surrounding areas are now. Then I start by choosing the Census year, then off to the right you pick what state, what county, then the districts show up. [Of course districts changed throughout the years also.] Then I begin the slow, agonizing process of going through each image in that district. I have found quite a few ancestors that way - and it was the only way I found some of them. :-(

And I'm NOT sure that it says "Varndal, Minn" on that passenger list I found - I may be seeing things! LOL! But yeah, one way to rule it in/out, would be to search 1900 or 1910 Verndale area Censuses, by image, for a man from Germany, that age range, with a name that looks similar to "Carotens Terlefs". {I really don't know what all to make of that name.}

More later tonight or tomorrow morning; I'll try to find that passenger list again for you.

Have a good day,
Kat

Re: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 13 Mar 2013 12:01AM GMT
Classification: Query
O.K., I'm back, and I found that passenger list again...it may not be her, but just check it out and see what you think.

Here's what I did:

Searched under "Immigration & Travel"
Typed in - 'Emma Herman'
Birth - '1892' Location - 'Germany'
Arrival - '1908' Location - 'New York'

Hit search, and she's about the 12th one on the list that shows up; arriving March 8, 1909. She's passenger 27 on the image. On that list it's spelled 'Herrmann'.

I hope their marriage certificate will help you get her parents names and her birthdate.

More later,
Kat

Re: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 13 Mar 2013 12:32AM GMT
Classification: Query
You make some very good points regarding how to search, Kat. I wish Ancestry.com would put some of your plain speaking dialogue into their Wiki. It would certainly help those who are trying to figure out how to search for their relatives.

Re: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 13 Mar 2013 2:20AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi Kat,
You have so many GREAT tips on how to search. I think I am wrong on the passenger list that I found on my Emma because I don't think she was a US citizen at that time. I didn't even pay attention to that (still learning). How does one really know that is the correct person that they are looking for anyways? If they have so many different names and possible name spelling? That is what has been going through my mind. How does one really know that is their person. There are so many pages and pages of of things that come up when you search and for a newbie that can be very overwhelming at times. I won't give up, because this is so intersting.

I did send an email to wadena county today because I was on their historical society webpage and I found her last name Herman on there and I just sent a quick email asking how to search their records to see if they have anything on my Emma. I guess I will wait and see.

Fred's father did die 2 years after they were married. Him and his family lived in Iowa, and John Barnhard went to Rochester, MN for a consult because he was not feeling well and he ended up passing away there. His body was sent back to Iowa and that is where he is buried. Magdalena (Fred's mom) actually lived longer than Emma (Fred's wife). The story from my great grandfather is that shortly after her and Fred moved from Iowa to Roberts County, SD Emma went in to have a tooth pulled and never woke back up. My Grandpa was the youngest of the children (he was around 1) so he really never never knew his mother. My grandpa passed away in 1997 and I really wish I would have asked more questions before, but I didnt and now I am trying to put the puzzle pieces together. I have enjoyed learning about their lives as much as I can.

How long have you been researching your ancestors? Have you gotten far in figuring out your family tree?

I do thank you so much for all of your advice for me. You are a rockstar!!!
Tara

Re: Hermann/Hermanns/Barnhardt

Posted: 13 Mar 2013 2:21AM GMT
Classification: Query
I agree...she has some great ideas for me on how to search.
Tara
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