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Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Posted: 28 Aug 2010 3:32AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Dernoncourt
I was just wondering if anyone out there knows how or who I contact to see about getting a birth certificate or birth registration. We found out that my great grandmother Rosalie Augustine Dernoncourt was born in Denain, France in 1869 and later married my great grandfather Seraphin Leclercq,who was born in Belgium, I am not sure if they married in France also. Any information anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerly
Kathy

Re: Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Posted: 28 Aug 2010 5:05AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello

It is easy to obtain a certificate if you are a direct descendent. Just order it online at the city's website:

Ville de Denain
http://www.ville-denain.fr/

Click « Entrer » in the center of the page, then click « État Civil en ligne », and fill out the form.

If you are in Canada or the US, enter the name of your province or state after the name of the city in the appropriate filed.

You will need her exact date of birth to get her birth record. If you don't know the names of her parents, just enter « Inconnu ».

You should have it within one week wherever you live. They reply very quickly.

Bonne recherche !

Re: Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Posted: 28 Aug 2010 1:45PM GMT
Classification: Query
Thanks so much for the quick and helpful reply. My question is what happens if you don't know the exact date of birth, I know the year, and that is all. Do you have any suggestions for me on what or how to figure out what my next step is.

Re: Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Posted: 11 Sep 2010 1:02AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello

I checked the registers for the Département of Nord and there appears to be at least three (maybe four) Dernoncourt families having children during the same years in the city of Denain. They are probably brothers and their wives.

There are two children named « Rosalie Dernoncort » born in Denain in 1869:

1.) The birth of Rosalie Augustine Dernoncourt was recorded in the civil registry of Denain on 26 April 1869.

2.) The birth of Rosalie (no middle name) Dernoncourt was recorded in the civil register of Denain on 19 March 1869.

By law, births must recorded within two days of birth; most of the time it happens on the same day. You can use these dates to order both birth certificate from the city of Denain separately, if you choose.

Of course, as always with French research, the best genealogical record is the MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE. These are goldmines of information. They will state the full names of the groom and bride, their occupations, their full residential addresses (at this time); the full names of their fathers and mothers, their occupations, the city where they live, and if they are deceased, the exact dates of death; and four witnesses, their relation to the wedded couple, their ages, and where they live. -- This is really the record you should be seeking, unless they were born outside of France, of course!

(Birth certificates do not have much information except name of father, his occupation, and address - if this is a child of a legal marriage; if not, it will be omitted - and the name of the child, her birthdate, and the name of the mother. Witnesses - at this time - are usually unrelated, but not always.)

The 10-Year Indexes « Tables décennales » for the Département of Nord have been digitized and are online, but the actual certificates are not online yet. (Probably, they will be online in the middle of next year.)

Here is the website so you can do research yourself:
Archives départementales du Nord
http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/?id=archives_onli...

You will find it easy to use.

Bonne recherches !

Re: Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Posted: 11 Sep 2010 3:33AM GMT
Classification: Query
Follow-up:

I sent a reply to your direct message to me.

Now that I have all of the facts, we know that your ancestor is Rosalie Augustine Dernoncourt, whose birth was recorded in the civil registry of Denain (Nord) on 26 April 1869.

NB : Be sure to request a « copie intégrale », and not an « éxtrait ».

Bien amicalement

Re: Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Posted: 11 Sep 2010 3:40AM GMT
Classification: Query
Thank you for all your help, I greatly appreciate it, I was wondering what is the difference between the requests? And what information will this give me. I do know it would be great to get the marriage, but again I have no idea where they married, as my great grandfather was born in Belgium, so not to sure where or how they met, or where they married..Any ideas?

Kathy

Re: Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Posted: 11 Sep 2010 6:07AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello

1.) I do not understand your question: « I was wondering what is the difference between the requests? And what information will this give me. »

To which requests are you referring? Please ask this question another way so I can understand better.

1A.) If it is a question about the contents of a wedding record, this is what it will include: The date of the wedding; full name of groom, his occupation, his exact birthdate (before about 1820, only his age), his birthplace, his exact residence at time of marriage; the full name of his father, his father's occupation, his age, his residence, and if deceased, his exact date of death and place of death; the full name of his mother, her occupation, her age, her residence, and if deceased, her exact date of death and place of death; it will also state the same information about the bride and her parents; and it will state information about four witnesses to the wedding who are usually relatives: their full names, their occupations, their ages, their places of residence, their exact relationship to the bride and groom; and it will show the signatures of the groom, the bride, the four witnesses, the mayor or registrar of the civil registry; and none, sometimes up to a dozen members of the wedding party.

1B.) If it is a question about a birth record, this is what it will include: The date of registration, the name of the person registering the birth - most of the time the father who has physically carried the baby to the city hall (while the mother is at home recovering), less often the midwife or paternal grandfather (who are carrying the child); this person's age and occupation; the name of the child's father, his age, occupation, and residence if from a legal marriage - if the child was not born within a legal marriage, all information about a father will be omitted; the name of the mother, her age, and her place of residence; the name of the child, and his or her exact birth date and time of birth; and one additional witness beyond the person registering the birth (after 1820, usually unrelated to the child).

1C.) If it is a question about a death record, this is what it will include: The date of registration, the name of the deceased, his or her exact place and time of death, his or her exact birthdate and place of birth (before about 1820, only age); full name of spouse, and after 1870 their wedding date and place, and whether the spouse is deceased; the full names of the parents, and whether they are living or deceased; and the names of two witnesses - usually one relative and one neighbor.

As you can see, the wedding record is most valuable.

2.) Eight times out of ten before 1870, couples in France were wed in the place of birth of the bride. (Women were generally less educated, and did not have the opportunities for jobs in other towns that men did. Often young women lived with parents until their marriage.) --- Look for the marriage in the 10-Year Indexes (« Tables décennales ») of Denain at the website of the Archives that I gave you.

Bonnes recherches !

Archives départemenatles du Nord

Posted: 11 Sep 2010 7:26AM GMT
Classification: Query
Here is how to access the website of the Archives départementales du Nord:

Website:
http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/?id=archives_onli...

To access the 10-Year Indexes, click on « Tables décennales », first item in the far left column.

On the next page select your city (« commune ») from the first drop-down box.

Select the time period from the second drop-down box.

Then, select All (« Tous »), Births (« Naissance »), Wedding (« Mariages »), or Deaths (Décès). Click « Rechercher »

On the next page, click on the image of the file you want.

On the next page, click on the same image that now appears separately on the right side.

On the next page, slide the little triangular pointer under the 5 images of pages at the bottom, or click on the left or right triangular arrows to advance the pages.

Depending on the period, earlier indexes are by first letter of last name (only), chronological by year; middle year indexes are by first letter of last name, by year, then full alphabetical order; and last indexes are full alphabetical order. -- See how your period is arranged before you begin research.

To enlarge or reduce an image, slide the pointer triangle on the far left bottom of the screen, --- or to enlarge, click and drag over an area on the screen (only works once on each image).

Additional image control icons appear on the top right and bottom right of the screen.

Bonne recherche !

Re: Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Posted: 12 Sep 2010 2:53PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi there, sorry for the confusion efcharvet, what I was asking about was your comment to order the copie integrate, and not the extrait, I was wondering what the difference between these two requests were.
Thank you for all your help with locating my ggrandmother, without people like you helping, I don't know what I would of done. So Thank You Again.
I have looked at the marriage's that have taken place and I cannot find Rosalie Augustine Dernoncourt's marriage to Seraphin Arthur Leclercq, would love any help you might be able to give me. I do know that Seraphin was born in Belgium around 1867, I know their first child Angele was born around 1890, but I do not see the marriage in the records at all from Denain, so I do not know what my next step should be, would you have any ideas.
Thanks so much
Kathy

Re: Rosalie Dernoncourt who lived in Denain, France

Posted: 12 Sep 2010 10:23PM GMT
Classification: Query
OK....

A « copie intégrale » is either a facsimile copy of the original document (95% of the time) or a full and exact transcription of the original. Un « extrait » (there are two kinds) is a document that lists names, places, and dates (only) extracted from the original document in a format that you use to apply a passport or for business and education requests.


The name « Leclercq » is very, very, very common. It is primarily limited to the NPdC region (and somewhat in Somme) and families who have roots there. And, of course, it is found in adjacent regions of the Wallonie region of Belgium. It is not an easy name to research because there are so many thousands of people who share this name. You are a bit lucky that your ancestor's first name is « Séraphin » because is is less common, but I would not be surprised if you encounter several people who have it.

The first thing you must do is find the birth records of ALL of the brothers and sisters of your Rosalie Augustine Dernoncourt in Denain, particularly of all her older sibings. Most of the time, the birth of the oldest sibling will state where the father or mother were born or where their marriage took place if this place is not the same place as the child's birth. This same information may appear in recordsd of subsequent siblings' births, but less often.

On these records, carefully look at the witnesses. Especially for the birth of the first child in the first half of the 19th century, one witness (or both) are a close relative. The records will always state where the witnesses reside. Then, follow-up this information.

If this is no luck, then get copies marriage certificates for people with the same last name as the bride - in your case, because the groom's name is too common and you know he is not from Denain anyway. Often, a brother-in-law - suchas your Séraphin Leclercq - will appear as a witness in a wedding which may tell a little information about him.

If your ancestors remained in Denain in 1872 and 1876, the censuses of these two years (only) will show the exact name of cities of birth for everyone. (They do not show places of birth on censuses again until 1906 and after.) (Censuses are every five years in France, mostly ending in years with 1 and 6.) -- Denain has a lot of people and the census will be somewhat large. It is not indexed by name, however it is not too difficult to find people: Get the STREET name from a vital record (birth, wedding, death, promesse, marriage contract, etc.) closest to 1872 or 1876 - several years away is usually OK. Then, on either the first pages or the last pages of the census, all of the streets will be listed in the order have been recorded. The names of the streets appear on the margins of the actual census pages in the same order. Just go to the first page with your street, then start scanning. Most of the time, this takes me less than 20 minutes to find someone ths way. (Note: Small towns often do not have indexes of streets, but you can scan an extire census without much effort.

In the archives, you can also check the voters' lists (men only), which have been alphabetised in some cities and départements. (I do not know about Denain or Nord.)


If you are American, and these ancestors came to that country, look at ship lists, immigration and naturalization paper in the counties where they lived. Also look at wills and probates that will be in the courthouses of counties where they died. -- Look for the same records of siblings or children who were born in France, of course.

I hope you find something in this message useful to you.

Bonne recherche !
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