I missed this when it came by and sure hope that you're still around to see this...
I could be wrong, but it's my clear understanding that Peggy Venable is Vonnie's mother... <G>
I'm not sure why you and Peggy were discussing Little Prince... There were two major Creek Chiefs called "Far Away", or in Muskogee, Hopoie (various spellings... the modern standardized spelling would be Hopvye, but you won't find it spelled anything like that or in any consistent manner in historical records and accounts. One was Little Prince, aka also The Bird Tail King, aka Hopoie *Haujo*. The other was Hopie *Micco* aka Tustunuggee Thlucco... who was also... possibly (I'm not entirely satisfied with this) known as George Washington Cornells. In both cases the Hopoie name came to them because they were part of a Creek delegation that accompanied Hoboie Hilli Meko "the Good Child King" aka Alexander McGillivray, to the U.S. capital then at New York City where they met with Secretary of War John Knox (and stayed at Knox's home) and with President George Washington, while negotiating with them the treaty upon which all other Indian treaties since have been based, the Treaty of New York, in 1790. There were many chiefs known as Tustunugee Thlucco, because it simply means "principal chief" but it was often translated as "Big Warrior", so the "name"... a title, really... was applied to a succession of principal chiefs. But there is only one principal chief who is known to history as Big Warrior... that is the person who was principal chief from the time he assumed the role at Ft. Wilkinson (a couple of miles from what later became Wilkinson County) in 1802, until he died in Washington City (Washington, DC) in March of 1825, while trying to prevent Congressional ratification of the Treaty of Indian Springs of that year. He was NOT as signer of THAT treaty of Indian Springs (there were several treaties of that name, at different dates... that was the treaty cooked up by U.S. General/Creek Chief William McIntosh for which McIntosh was murdered). If you read any history of the 1st Creek War or the 1st Seminole War, and Big Warrior is mentioned (probably maliciously, unless the mention was by Benjamin Hawkins), the reference is to him. The 1st Creek War was actually an insurrection against him as principal chief far more than it was a war against the United States in general, though in effect the one led directly into the other... because the insurrection was a result of him attempting to honor the Creeks' treaty commitments with the U.S. in reference to punishing Creeks who attacked White U.S. citizens... and Hopoi Micco called for assistance from U.S. government troops, himself.
Anyway, my point was that you were discussing the wrong Hopoie with Peggy. I have also discussed Hopoie Micco with her and didn't get far because she refused to accept that Hopoie Micco and Big Warrior were the same person. I have an almost absolutely perfect documentary source for that though, and need to take that to and discuss it with her. I say almost, because Hawkins referred to him as Great Warrior rather than Big Warrior. If you will recall the first treaty that George Washington ever signed with the French, he later claimed that he could not read French and did not realize he had signed a document agreeing that he was a murderer... <G> In any case, Hawkins was a linguist, and although there is apparently no documentation of it, it is documented that Hawkins and Washington knew each other well and it is generally accepted that Hawkins served for awhile on Washington's staff during the Revolution, as his French interpreter. In his early years as Indian Agent South of the Ohio, Hawkins wrote a description of Creek Country and started it with a description of the Creek's political system... which he took I think too much credit for altering, but he did alter it and that's one of the things that brought about the 1st Creek War. In that description, he called the principal chief the Great Warrior. When others called Hopoie Micco Big Warrior, it was actually a demeaning of him that disguised and discounted the true nature of his "name" (title) and was probably also a snide reference to his physical size. But when Benjamin Hawkins directly addressed and referred to Hopoie Micco in the Creek National Council (in a speech that he recorded himself) as the Great Warrior... "Hopoie Micco you are the Great Warrior"... in context he was clearly referring to him as principal chief!!!
A couple of years ago I got a copy of a drawing of Big Warrior from the Joe Knetsch, State Lands historian for Florida. Both Little Prince under delegated authority from Big Warrior, and Big Warrior himself, personally, negotiated the so-called Forbes Purchase settling Creek debts with the successor to the Panton Leslie Co. The negotiations took place near the later site of the Negro Fort and Fort Gadsden on the Apalachicola in Florida and at the Creek National Council site at Hickory Ground, in Alabama. Joe has since then published that drawing in a book on the Seminole War. It was found by him in an early biography of Andrew Jackson, and it is my personal belief that it was a death drawing made for a newspaper after Hopoie Micco/Big Warrior died in in 1825. I've made a composite of it, two photos of my dad, and a photo of Shelby Etheridge. Look at their noses... <G> This *proves* nothing, of course, but it sure is interesting.
But speaking of proving things... my 2 great grandmother was Sarah Ridley who married Allen Spear in Wilkinson County in 1836. Allen's father Allen, Sr., had been in Thomas County, Georgia, since 1820, and how Allen, Jr., got to Wilkinson County to marry Sarah is a mystery to me. My best guess is that the Spears may have found it a bit "warm" during and near the hostilities of the 2d Creek War, and retreated a bit away from them. Do I *know* that Allen, Sr., and/or his wife were Creek? No, I do not. I don't even know who his wife was. But I do know that if they were that would fit a pattern.
By 1840 Allen Spear, Sr., was apparently deceased. His two sons William and Allen, Jr., appear on the same page in the census, and David Ridley lives 5 households away from Allen Spear, Jr. (See: http://heh.pl/&2Wu
and BTW: "Mary" (Lucy Nelson Haven) Haven was my widowed 3-great grandmother whose husband had just died while serving against the Seminoles in the Florida Mounted Militia, Right (Wright) Sellers was a brother of one of my 2-great grandfathers, and Presley Prevatt was a very distant uncle or cousin of mine.) Can anyone tell me what David Ridley's kinship would have been to Allen's wife, Sarah Ridley? Is this likely to be the "Deacon David Ridley" that I have down as possibly being the nearest son in age to his sister Sarah? Is David Ridley known to have resided in Thomas County... or conversely has his whereabouts in 1840 hitherto been unknown?
Also, can someone give me the family tree information for the Etheridges, down at least as far as Shelby Etheridge. I would like to be able to figure out his exact kinship to my dad.
But then the real clunker. I have been told by someone monitoring the Wilkinson County list, that Sarah Ridley was the daughter of Robert Ridley, Sr. and Nancy Mackey. HOWEVER, I've been unable to find a shred of documentation of that. If anyone has anything even remotely resembling documentation of that, please let me know... and, for this purpose, written down, "Great Aunt Susie told me so..." *is* documentation!!!
Oh yes... before I forget... I only recently figured something more out about how William Mackey, Jr.'s wife's name came down to us... Hopoi Micco means "Far Away Chief"... with the "chief" in this case meaning something akin to what we would call the mayor of a town. "Hoppoi Miccoi" is an altered form. The "i" on the end appears to me to be an added sound indicating another word now spelled "oye". Oye is a Muskogee word that can mean either WIDOW or widower! I believe, however, that Rebekah Marks was most likely a different person.