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Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 18 Feb 2013 6:55PM GMT
Classification: Query
Need help on past and present Laws and Tradition in both Ireland and the UK-

In the Present does the deceased family place an obit or Notice in local or regional papers ?

If they fail or refuse to do this--it just does not get posted anywhere?
I ask as a cousin in South Sligo passed 12/31/2012 and I cannot find an Obituary anywhere (except a no longer existing notice on westRadio).

What about in the past century (late1800s, early 1900s) was it much the same? (I.e. if the family did not place an Obituary in a paper, it simply Did not get published)?

finally, if this is the case (no obituary published) does Death Certificate get done by whom (Hospital the deceased was taken to)?

Thanks.

Murph_

Re: Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 19 Feb 2013 2:55AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi, Murph,
Although I can't answer your question at all, as I live in the US and just don't know the answer regarding currently, I would say that from my understanding about the past, there were fees associated with publication of a death notice (actually, much like there are today in many papers of the US). If the family couldn't afford to pay, there was no notice published. However, for your question about your cousin from 12/31/12, have you seen announcement.ie ? I went to the Sligo Champion and after I searched the site for obituaries, I saw they direct you to announcement.ie for more obituaries, as the search I did on the Champion site resulted in a single obituary. Good luck!
Jeanne

Re: Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 19 Feb 2013 2:57AM GMT
Classification: Query
Oh, one more question of yours to address: wherever the person dies (county), that's where the death cert is generated from. The HSE office in Sligo is where you'd enquire:

Sligo Civil Registration Service, Community Care Office, Markievicz House, Sligo
Opening Hours: Monday-Thursday 9.15am-4.45pm (late opening Wednesday to 7.30pm)Friday 9:15am-4:30pm
Phone: 071 9155115

Good luck.
Jeanne

Re: Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 19 Feb 2013 3:05PM GMT
Classification: Query
In Britain and Ireland, there is a distinct difference between an obituary and a death notice.
A death notice is a paid-for announcement giving only details of name, address, family members possibly and funeral arrangements.

An obituary is an article written by the publication about the person and his life. This would only be done for someone of repute e.g. famous sportsperson, musician etc An obituary would be found in the archives of the paper in question.

Currently, www.rip.ie is the website everyone refers to and this carries all death notices placed in local and/or national newspapers.
Most people place a notice in local and/or national media. The problem with local papers is that they are weekly. You'd be dead and buried before the next issue comes out! The advent of local radio has meant daily death notices read on air. It would be very rare for no death notice to appear in either.

As far as Victorian times are concerned, only those with means had death notices published - you'd have to do further research to find out when the practice started and when it became cheap to do so.

Since 1864 one is legally obliged to obtain a death certificate - when it had to be certified by a doctor I don't know. Today it must be the doctor attending the deceased.
www.irishroots.ie and www.FamilySearch.org have the death certificate index up to 1958.
Hope this helps



Re: Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 19 Feb 2013 4:55PM GMT
Classification: Query
Jeanne and eugenemcv,

Thanks for the responses. They ARE appreciated. I think a Death Notice is just the name, place, and date of death. I could be wrong. I KNOW the Death Certificate and Associated Registry is a Government required procedure to make sure everyone who has passed is documented accordingly.

Although I have personally dealt with the passing of Loved ones in the US, never in Ireland and I was *(and still am)* looking for someone who dealt with it in Ireland personally. I surmise if the remaining loved ones do not post and Obituary, nothing else is published save Gov. required notice (for banking and other organizations - otherwise How would they know?).

The Probate Court then comes into play and authorizes the executor/executrix to marshal the departed assets, and pay the final bills and funeral costs - then distributes the assets as the Will states or as the Law states if intestate (without a will, which is common despite wills being simple now days and usually not requiring Attys/Solictors). It is a complicated process and many do NOT know the hassle is winding up someone's estate --if small in money terms it can wipe out any inheritence (which is why I think it this case no Obit. was posted).

I do disagree that Obits are for someone of "repute" -- many people, indeed almost ALL people now and in the past have had Obituaries published by their family and loved ones (and the rip.ie and announcements.ie and other sites clearly provide that Family give notice to Friends and Family of the Passing and being online I do not think they cost ANYTHING).

In the US We all know and Obituary is done in the Persons local paper, BUT it has to be placed and paid for my Family or Friends otherwise it does not happen. Same in Ireland apparently (and in my case I think the person's Son did not know to place one). They can be expensive if photos are involved or long ($100.00 +) but if kept to a minimum they are affordable for the basic info. --- name, place and date --- most everybody now has an Obit. placed if only one sentence.

In the particular case I was referring in Sligo, Ireland, I think the person did not know to do so and probably would not of as it was a cost apparently did not want to incur. Sad.

Again, thanks for the replies (and if someone has personally done this in Sligo Ireland please let me know the details your aware of -- including I am told the Funeral Home does not require up front payment ...and might not bill for months? That is certainly different than the US as up front money, in full, is needed ...or it is not done.

Cheers,

Murph_

Re: Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 19 Feb 2013 7:41PM GMT
Classification: Query
My apologies, I think we're at cross-purposes here.

I do indeed have direct experience of dealing with death and probate here in Ireland.

The Obituary section of the Irish Times, a national newspaper, runs weekly. The national newspapers in the US have obituary sections too. These are what I mean by 'Obituaries'. These can be see online too.
In Dublin, for instance, a death notice only is the norm. The Irish Times for example, does not publish paid-for obituaries.

Practice outside the major cities, in the country areas, varies. I've known people who died in Sligo and Leitrim and Donegal and Cork and only had a death notice on radio.
In the local papers, paid-for notices with photographs and detail of the persons life are different and that's where my confusion lay.

As far as I know, there is no legal requirement to post any sort of notice of a death here in Ireland. As far as notification goes, your estate will not be wound up unless the probate office is notified with the will (or not), the appropriate forms and the death certificate.

Probate, whether with a will or not, is a long process here too.
Yes, in my experience the undertaker bills you after the funeral.
If there is any thing else, just ask.
Hope this helps,
E

Re: Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 23 Feb 2013 9:27AM GMT
Classification: Query

The general law on death registration is that it has to be done by someone who was present at the death or, failing that, someone with a relevant connection to the deceased. So that could be a close relative or a neighbour, the Master of the Workhouse, a doctor at the hospital etc. That was the case in 1864 and is much the same today.

The requirement for death registration to be accompanied by a medical certificate or a coroner’s inquest was introduced around 1894. (I have a newspaper report from the Portadown News of 28th Oct 1893 on the work of the Select Committee which created that legislation, so presumably the requirement started after that work was completed).

I live in Ireland and I agree with eugenemcv that an obituary is the exception here. When there is one, they tend to be well known members of the community. The average man or woman doesn’t have an obituary, and never did.

Re: Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 24 Feb 2013 9:52PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 24 Feb 2013 9:54PM GMT
All,

Well this has been very Interesting. I think in most circumstances family remains and takes care of things.

However, I am concerned about two situations.

Say a remaining family member does not go to probate and just ignores the requirements? No one would really know as this is private actions anyway (sending will to probate, hiring a Solictor, ect...). How are Houses/Land addressed in this situation? Say a will leaves property to the remaining family member (and they ignore probate procedures - can it be sold?). How would a buyer know if issues exist.

Second, would be the issue when a last remaining member of a family passes (and say no relatives remain, or no one who gives a concern). Given most of this costs something-if only time and hassle, usually "friends" are NOT going to pay or hire Solicitors to get "Letters of Authority" {as they are called Here in the US Authorizing someone to marshal assets like bank accounts, Land/House, personal property}.

I am not directly talking about Burial costs (but that too is an interesting issue) especially if the Undertaker bills months later, so what assures them of payment? They MUST have some mechanism to guarentee costs are paid especially as no one remains to sue (and who wants to sue anyway)?

I imagine many of the Funeral Homes never get paid if the do not make sure assets exist *(and then they wait for months for settlement of the Bill. (In the US - they get paid up front in full- or nothing happens if someone does not pay them). Something must exist to make sure they get paid as Funerals are expensive - I imaging in the old days when the family did everything not too much costs existed save grave diggers - but most societies have moved away from family preparing the body and I know laws exist if someone is not buried quickly ---one reason I though Ireland had a tendency to bury loved ones quickly, within days -- often making it so family in the US could not get over fast enough (a common thing I heard over the past 20 years or so)!!

Finally, it seems I am missing something here as to the Laws in place? Does automatic liens exist on the Home of the deceased? What if they are in nursing Homes (or some other medical bills which surely exist - -but in ireland most are covered by NHS so maybe they do not worry about final medical costs payment?

I probably should be directing that question to the Funeral Home or director --

My concern is mainly if a small property is left, and no probate goes forward and no one knows it did not -- how could a property be sold?

Any idea? Anyone dealt with these issues as any comments for those who have went through this is appreciated...

Murph_

Re: Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 24 Feb 2013 11:21PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 24 Feb 2013 11:25PM GMT
It was very common to wind up an estate without obtaining probate. It happened all the time, and wasn’t illegal. I am not sure about the Republic of Ireland today but in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK it is still possible wind up an estate without probate, where the estate is of very low value or all the main assets are in joint names. But in the 1800s it was very common. The main assets were typically the farm, and moveable items such as the cattle, machinery, seed and the family possessions. A little cash in the bank perhaps. There often wasn’t anything else. Probate tended to be essential if there were insurance policies or large investments. Where that wasn’t the case, the relatives simply distributed the bequests in accordance with the will, or in the absence of a will according to custom. Banks often used to hand over small deposits to the widow or son without sight of a probate document.

Absence of probate had little impact on property. Land registration has only been compulsory in Ireland in very recent years. In the 1800s it wasn’t necessary to register a transfer of ownership, and in any event all that was usually being passed on in most families was the unexpired portion of a lease, as very few people actually owned their land anyway. But even where you did own the land, the person who had inherited it under the will simply took possession. Should they later decide to sell, they would gather together such evidence as they had of their entitlement to possession eg any previous deeds and the will. They might add an affidavit confirming they had acquired it through inheritance, which is why they were now the vendor, and that generally would satisfy the purchaser. (There was little other evidence they could produce anyway). That system worked fine.

You ask about undertakers bills, and how does the undertaker know he is going to be paid. The short answer is he doesn’t. (Even where there’s a will and probate he’s not necessarily going to be paid if there are insufficient assets). In rural Ireland business transactions have always been done on trust. That is still very much the case today. People are usually happy to bill you after the service you asked for has been provided, and not just for funerals. They sometimes make a judgment based on knowing you and your family. There’s no mechanism to guarantee payment though. It would appear from what you say that non payment of undertakers bills may be an issue in the US, but it’s not in Ireland. The undertaker will normally be paid. It would be a serious breach of trust and faith if that didn’t happen. No need for legally binding agreements. People know what is expected.

I do research mostly in Northern Ireland and whenever I encounter a death, I routinely check the PRONI wills site to see if probate was obtained for the deceased’s estate. Mostly it wasn’t. I’d estimate that, until the 1930s or 1940s, probate was obtained in no more than about 5% of deaths. The rest were wound up in the manner I have described above. More recently, most deaths would lead to probate being obtained, but your enquiry was about the 1800s and early 1900s, and so as I say, no probate and no obituary was the norm.

In a small rural community it isn’t necessary to advertise a death. Everyone in the area knows anyway by word of mouth, and anyone with an unpaid debt will call and see the family or executor, at an appropriate time after the funeral. (The norm in Ireland is to bury a person 3 days after their death).


Re: Obits/Death notices in Ireland & UK now days

Posted: 25 Feb 2013 11:11AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi

First Scenario:
if there's a remaining family member and they inherit according to the will: they cannot sell without first going through probate.
They can attempt to sell by pretending to be the owner but this is fraud - any solicitor must satisfy themselves that the seller is in fact the owner of the property. They can, and do, ask for passport or other identification. Title deeds are necessary also.

If they do not want to sell or do not need to, the property can remain in the deceased's name until the property is to be transferred.

A buyer does not really know if any problems exist until their solicitor checks everything out. Sales can fall through when it is discovered all is not well.
Checking 'good title', is one of the crucial duties of your solicitor and why its always advisable to retain one.

Next scenario: No relatives.

The property falls into the ownership of the State. Any living relatives who subsequently appear can apply to the authorities to inherit.
If the State has not taken over the estate and it's in some sort of abeyance, then get a local solicitor to investigate for you. There is also the possibility of some other neighbour squatting on the land but its hard for them to establish ownership. And can provoke rows in years to come.

Funeral costs:
According to law, all costs associated with the winding up of the estate including burial must be paid first. Then, any mortgages or liens on property - these will be written on title deeds. Then any non-secured loans.
Mortgages must have life insurance attached so the mortgage is repaid on death. Other loans also often have insurance.

Funerals:
Nowadays, they take as long as necessary - maybe someone returning from Australia, California etc. For example, I am going to one next Thursday, the man died last Saturday. But he has children abroad.
Post-mortems can prolong things too. Also, delays at graveyards or crematorium can dictate. And lately, the lack of priests has sometimes delayed by a day or two.

A priest told me years ago that the three day rule was to do with Christ's death and resurrection - 'He rose again on the third day' etc.

You'd really be better off talking to a local solicitor in Sligo about the more technical legal stuff. Google them and you can talk by email.
Hope that helps,
Eugene
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