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Another general question...

Another general question...

Posted: 20 Mar 2013 8:00PM GMT
Classification: Query
I know or at least think that families did not use designations like senior, junior, the 3rd, etc when using the same first name. Is there some Czech equal to indicate this? For instance, I have a family where it appears 3 generations of men lived in the same household by the name of Mikula (an all married a woman named either Marie or Marie Anna). I noticed on the younger Mikula has some letters trailing on the end of the name. Does this mean anything?

I'll attach an example, very top entry 16 Martio ...syn Mikulaxxx Bokra... Thanks!
Attachments:

Re: Another general question...

Posted: 20 Mar 2013 9:37PM GMT
Classification: Query
I'm not sure, what you mean because the document is in thist quality (for me) unreadable, but where it is connected with father names in record about birth, it's only declension. Names Marie and Marie Anna (or Marianna) were very frequent. And yes, we don't use something like "junior" or "senior", but I saw it some birth record

Re: Another general question...

Posted: 20 Mar 2013 10:03PM GMT
Classification: Query
I am sorry, I will try a higher resolution save... Could just be I am not reading things quite right either. It looks to me as a death record...

16 Martio Jan Syn Mikulayya or Mikulayys Bokra . Maybe the is supposed to by an s ? So it is Mikulasa?? Bokra

Just seemed strange that I see it sometimes as Mikula or Mikulas and sometimes as the way it is on the attached file.
The direct link is http://actapublica.eu/matriky/plzen/prohlizec/1239/?strana=2... folio 421

Mostly a general question though of sorting through & separating children when the first & surname are identical and from the same domu, and both wives appear to be named Marie or Marie Anna.

What looks like might have happened is the elder Mikulas first wife Dorata died young and the elder Mikulas remarried to a Marie Anna, the same name as the younger Mikulas. I can't prove that yet, as I have to find the marriages. Thank you!
Attachments:

Re: Another general question...

Posted: 21 Mar 2013 6:16PM GMT
Classification: Query
It´s "Jan sin Mikulasse" (Jan syn Mikuláše) and it means Jan, son of Mikuláš. Czech uses inflected forms of words.

Re: Another general question...

Posted: 21 Mar 2013 10:54PM GMT
Classification: Query
This is an ongoing education for the new researchers. Aksamitnik said "inflections" but if you are old enough to have studied English grammar, or Latin, we would call them "cases". So in English we have subject, direct object, indirect object, etc. In Czech, it's nominative, accusative, and dative. Latin uses those terms. In English, the only time we change for case is with pronouns. So subject would be "he", direct object would be "him" and possessive would be "his". Czech and French carry this idea out extensively for regular nouns, however. You learn after a while to drop off those endings and look for the root word.

The funniest thing is that accusative (direct object) for Josef is Josefa, leading many a researcher to change gender for a relative. :)

Re: Another general question...

Posted: 25 Mar 2013 2:23AM GMT
Classification: Query
Thanks Mary, that clears it up a little. I did the same, only learning later my mistake after they had came over to the USA and suddenly Josefa became Josephine after I found it in the US census! Learned to look a lot closer for gender indications after that.

Guess I was looking for an easy "mark" to try to distinguish them. Think I finally got it though, as I'm fairly certain now I'm dealing with father/son and that son remarried. I'm still searching for the marriage to confirm, but I found the death of the 1st wife so I'm fairly certain this is what happened.

Just made me a little crazy to see 3 sets of Mikulas with 3 wives all named either Marie Anna or Marianne. Not nearly as good at languages to pick up on that. Thanks for helping me out.

Re: Another general question...

Posted: 25 Mar 2013 3:49AM GMT
Classification: Query
Yes, we have all run into the duplicate name situation. That is why I just love the 1747 marriage of Sebastian and Sophie on my husband's line -- no confusing them! My experience with naming patterns is a little different. The custom from my area was that the first son was named after the grandfather, the second after the father or perhaps an uncle who was older than the father, so then it would be the third son who had the father's name. Not a hard and fast rule, but used often enough.

But in my research to help others, I have seen situations where the second wife had the same name as the first, and was nearly the same age as the first family's children. In one family, the last daughter of the first wife was Frantiska, and 3 years later, the first daughter of the second wife was also Frantiska! I had the wrong one married into the line I was working on with a friend for several weeks, I think. Imagine -- two little girls with the same name in the same household. The older one (my friend's ancestor) got married at 18, but first baby not born for over a year. Do you think maybe she wanted to escape the stepmother?

The only solution is to do exactly as you are -- find all possible records, sort through them. Don't forget, the death records had the age, and while mistakes do happen, Czech math is mostly very good. In fact, what I frequently do is go through the death book first, and list all with the surname I'm researching, because they've got to be connected somehow. Well, I go through the index, not the actual book. I can then compute the possible birth year and watch for that person in the baptismal book.

Regarding Josefa, that would equate to Josephine. It's the folks who got a transcription where masculine Josef became Josefa in the accusative, usually a sibling, not the direct ancestor, and they didn't understand that it really was Josef. So the narrative might read "They had 3 children -- Jan, Josef, and Siegfried" which in Czech would turn out "Jana, Josefa, a Sigfrieda". They translate Jana as Jan correctly, but leave the "a" on the other two.

Good luck. It will be fun to see where you are with this a year from now.

Re: Another general question...

Posted: 25 Mar 2013 2:13PM GMT
Classification: Query
Thanks Mary! I really had pretty good luck with the patriarcal line of Haisman, this line is a minor matriarcal line of in the Haismans line, Bokra. I pretty much chased back the Haismans to the beginning of parish records in late 1600s, this line is proven a little more problematic.

Even given that, still makes me only about 1/8th done! (If you can ever say done) I still have 2 minor lines, and a full line of Simitz to chase in Bohemia. Then a 2 lines of German, 1 French, and 1 Irish. Unfortunately 2 lines minor lines in Bohemia are in Vreskovice and those records are not online (yet) so IDK what I can do until then.

Luckily I just found the manifest for the Simitz family and I am now trying to locate the village. As I said in another forum, seems you have to be part detective to do this work, but I enjoy it. It's like solving an old puzzle, and fairly addictive.

Re: Another general question...

Posted: 25 Mar 2013 2:42PM GMT
Classification: Query

Re: Another general question......

Posted: 25 Mar 2013 3:00PM GMT
Classification: Query
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