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Source Citations

Source Citations

Posted: 28 Nov 2012 7:47PM GMT
Classification: Query
One major resource I use for events that I enter in my ACOM tree are newspaper articles. I have added over 4000 newspaper references into my ACOM tree and have manually added them as source citations. I find or add the Source in the pick list and complete the Citation field (required) with the page where the article is to be found and then add the publication date in the date field. Unfortunately when I complete a FTM 2012 sync, the information in the date field is not copied into FTM 2012 so I now have 4000+ event sources showing a publication and page # but no date. Pretty useless when preparing charts and reports that include source references.

Any suggestions as to how to get the date field in my source citation to copy over to FTM 2012 would be appreciated (Other than the obvious one of reentering the date of the 4000+ articles into the Citation field).

Re: Source Citations

Posted: 28 Nov 2012 8:06PM GMT
Classification: Query
No way to do it except manually with the current version of FTM. As you've already noted, this information is not synchronized. Unfortunately, it's one of many such examples. I recommend writing in and requesting that some facility be created within FTM to house/translate this data from Ancestry.

Re: Source Citations

Posted: 28 Nov 2012 10:00PM GMT
Classification: Query
I am confused.

There is currently no specific date field at the citation level in FTM. The date is normally entered in the "citation detail" entry box. (or at the Source level for publication date.) I haven't worked with ancestry trees, so I don't know what the screens look like on that side of the fence. If they have a date entry box for a citation - that is a structural difference with FTM they need to deal with.

Re: Source Citations

Posted: 28 Nov 2012 11:54PM GMT
Classification: Query
Copy attached of the "Create Source Citation" page from ancestry tree.

Re: Source Citations

Posted: 29 Nov 2012 12:34AM GMT
Classification: Query
Attached are three screenshots. One shows the input screen for a citation in my AMT, another what the Source Citation screen looks like after it has been saved in my AMT and the third one shows on the far right the information about the source citation which appears in FTM 2012 after syncing my linked tree.

PS. AMT = Ancestry Member Tree

Re: Source Citations

Posted: 29 Nov 2012 12:37AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 29 Nov 2012 12:40AM GMT
It would appear to me that FTM has 3 choices:

1) Add Date Field to FTM citation
2) Delete Date Field from (ugh)
3) Map data in Date field in ancestry to export to FTM Citation detail box.

I would think No 1 would be less disruptive to users.
I would think No 2 would be unacceptable to users.
No 3 is just a work-around because the two structures are different.

I don't know how this deals with gedcom compatibility, but the repurcussions of a change on gedcom would need to be evaluated as well.

Re: Source Citations

Posted: 29 Nov 2012 12:54AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 29 Nov 2012 1:00AM GMT
If #3 is done, then it needs to be translated both ways. Best to have something consistent though, i.e., date field in both or neither.

GEDCOM does not have a separate date field for sources, and I believe it is intentionally unstructured to maximize compatibility. As long as FTM/Ancestry export a valid GEDCOM, then it makes no difference, I think, what's done on this end, as long as the information synchronizes so people moving from don't have to spend countless hours doing what a computer could do in seconds.

Here is the relevant field:

When and where the record was created. For published works, this includes information such as the city of publication, name of the publisher, and year of publication.

For an unpublished work, it includes the date the record was created and the place where it was created. For example, the county and state of residence of a person making a declaration for a pension or the city and state of residence of the writer of a letter.

Re: Source Citations

Posted: 29 Nov 2012 2:32AM GMT
Classification: Query
Marco is correct regarding GEDCOM.

A SOURCE and its corresponding SOURCE_PUBLICATION_FACTS are the correct places for dates of publication of a newspaper article. From a GEDCOM view a SOURCE_CITATION is used to identify a specific place in that source.

From the standpoint of FTM the basic source entry dialog/screen has three fields 1) Publisher Name 2) Publisher Location 3) Publish Date. FTM makes a mess of the SOURCE_RECORD in the GEDCOM when you output a source made with a template by putting everything in a NOTE.

Anyway, If you are entering a publication date for a newspaper as a separate field in the AMT citation, which is ok from a data entry standpoint, when a GEDCOM is created the date along with any other "publisher information" should be formated to follow publisher citation pattern based on any one of the well known standards like "Chicago, Evidence Explained etc.

GEDCOM does not have a field for date and does not need one. The database within FTM and AMT can have separate fields this is ok as well. The only time we care about GEDCOM is if you are creating one and you must know where to put the data to make a well formed record.

The same is true for SYNC. They should have distinct fields in their DataBases and if they do not the communication protocal should know what is needed to consistantly make the date data and other data go back and forth without data loss.

This is a bug that can be fixed since the interface and products come from the same company.

Re: Source Citations

Posted: 29 Nov 2012 2:43AM GMT
Classification: Query

1) Not a correct solution. A citation should not contain a date this is a job for the source and it has a date. It is possible that AMT is missusing the term citation in that it is asking for all of the information used in a "written citation". If they are then no changes are needed just a better translation of data from AMT to FTM.

2) Not a correct solution either. A publication date for a written citation is needed, the request for the data is just in a different place than FTM. Again, a better translation of data from AMT to FTM is needed.

3) No not correct either. Citation Detail is not where the data should end up. This is now a field in the Source Publication Date field.

Structure does not matter. Use does. If the data ends up being used the same way who cares how it is entered and stored.

Re: Source Citations

Posted: 29 Nov 2012 2:46AM GMT
Classification: Query
I have heard back from FTM Tech Support and according to them
the issue does not reside in my source citation, instead the issue is that I did not enter a date in the source itself.  As such, the only way to edit my sources in Family Tree Maker is to edit the source itself in Family Tree Maker or 

In other words, every time a newspaper is cited as a source, a separate source must be created for each separate edition. Apparently the date field on the citation screen has no relevance. I suggested that perhaps it might be better to put the date field to some useful purpose
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