General - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

Barrey50 — 2013-05-03 02:36:55Z

Thank you! Very helpful.

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

DonGillies61 — 2013-05-02 22:14:16Z

Linking a particular tartan to a specific clan is a modern concept. It only became popular in the early 1900's, and was driven by commercial gain.

When Scots wore the kilt as normal dress, the only things that determined what colours were worn was what dyes were available in their area at the time, and what they could afford.

So it's really your own personal choice. If you want to wear a tartan linked to a surname then you're obviously free to do so, but you should be aware that it has no historical relevance whatsoever.

In battle, Highlands clans often attached symbols to their clothes to identify themselves. Sprigs of juniper, or heather were common examples.

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

Barrey50 — 2013-05-02 17:40:45Z

I was so pleased to find this thread and read the excellent comments from real Scots. It leaves me with a question, though. When you wear kilts, how do you determine the tartan if it is not based on clans? Thanks!

Family Clans, Federations, and Associations

livingstoneancestry — 2013-04-29 18:55:28Z

Hello Everyone, hoping someone here might be able to assist. Confuses me a little. I am a member of a couple of Scottish Highland Clans. But I've also seen where a few clans are not separate but instead are called part of a Federation (ex. Chattan Federation). And have seen a few also called Family Associations, since they are not actually clans

Can someone help me figure out the difference between the three?

thanks, Suzanne

Re: I have Celtic in me

mi2early — 2012-12-05 14:16:39Z

Start with yourself and work backwards, obtaining documentation/proof (marriage, birth, and death certificates; census data; parish records; etc.) as you go. It's the only way.

Your local library will have books about family research. There is also a lot of free information on the web.

Re: I have Celtic in me

KathyPenny56 — 2012-12-04 20:28:04Z

Hello,

Yes, my Grandpa Charles was born in Tennesse in 1852. Grandpa was Irish I was told by my Father. My father always wanted us children to locate our European family. I had my DNA done a year ago,and it revealed my heritage is in Australia. My DNA shows that I come from Celtic speaking people. I believe that my Greatgrandpa's name was James not certain. I want to connect with my people in honor of my father as well as my family and myself. I am also told that we have a coat of arms

Re: I have Celtic in me

mi2early — 2012-12-04 14:59:25Z

What kind of help are you seeking?

I have Celtic in me

KathyPenny56 — 2012-12-03 18:08:43Z

Hi I had my DNA down and it says that I have Celtic in me. I am American from California. I am searching out my people. Can someone help me please???

Re: Tartan identification

arich41 — 2012-11-21 15:14:08Z

Hi
Absolutely nothing. If you look at my posting I was asking the question also.
Andrea

Re: Tartan identification

Lancelandrum — 2012-11-21 15:07:01Z

I am a Landrum and my wife is a Macfarlane. I've heard they share a tartan? What can you tell me about Landrum and tartans?

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

John Shearer — 2011-07-14 12:05:57Z

Gordon,

My intervention was on behalf of a lady from the US who I felt was being bullied by a few people with a little more knowledge than she had. I became concerned when she seemed to sigh and give up on line. My personal views were irrelevant, what mattered was my ability to offer an informed but different point of view.

I believe the whole concept of clans, lairds and powerful families in Scotland changed in different regions over time and time is meaningless to many researchers. They have a 'Brigadoon' vision of a charming highland village (which we know never existed) preserved in aspic, where rosy faced boys and girls and their healthy grey haired seniors danced reels and sung songs after a hard days farming or fighting in exciting but safe inter- clan warfare. I completely understand that historians and 'serious' family historians can become very frustrated by this strange concept, which more often than not, exists among our American cousins. However,

On the other hand I have met and debated with some American cousins who are extremely serious scholars, working almost solely from original sources, supported by a post graduate level of general Scottish History who can show clear descent from tacksmen of the Macdonald, Cameron and other clans who can prove their relationship to living Highland chieftains and who know and are entertained by those same members of Scotland's aristocracy, when they visit their country of origin. These people can trace and explain the ruins of family fortresses and poses scraps of letters from their ancestors who migrated to our American colonies before they became independent. They have also traced documents in historical records in Scotland relating to the executions and deportations of their distant relatives. These people are active in their clan societies and in coordinating highland gathering and are very capable of helping anyone interested in tracing their Highland ancestors.

The fact that I know these people does not mean that I share their view of Scottish History, which I believe is distorted by time and space. They view Scotland from the perspective of a Highland supporter of Charles Edward Stewart in post - 1745 Scotland. I on the other hand completely support the benefits of 408 years of Regal Union from 1603 and, 304 years of Political Union from 1707, the contribution of Scots to the British Empire and the contribution of the Empire to Scotland. However, I sometimes wonder if in moving to London some years ago I lost touch with Modern Scotland since I cannot understand the phenomenon that is 21st Century Scottish Nationalism therefore I am perhaps also beginning to set in aspic.

Returning to your original comments and the pace of clan development, I think you will agree that Scotland's regions reflect the different people and tribal federations which are their basis. South Western Scotland, once the Kingdom of Strathclyde, was peopled by close relatives of the people we now call Welsh and their capital was Dunbarton on the River Clyde. Their original language if it still existed would be close to Welsh or Ancient British but this was replaced by a form of English known as Scots. This region was central to Scotland's growth and development where the Earls of Lennox were dominant in the centuries after the end of the Kingdom of Strathclyde and the beginning of Bruce's Scotland. Interestingly, families sponsored by the Earl of Lennox went north to become progenitors of what we now call clans, these include Buchanan, Colquhoun, Macaulay, Macfarlane and Mackinlay. They are an early example of leaders from more sophisticated parts of Scotland moving north and adopting clan culture to some degree. The Anglo-Normans I referred to in earlier correspondence did the same.

In South Eastern Scotland the Britons of the kind who retained Strathclyde were displaced by Angles who took over the ancient kingdom of Gogodin, presumably a later word for the Votadini we know of from Roman maps. This Anglicisation of the region was presumably strengthened when Anglo-Saxon noblemen followed Queen Margaret, later Saint Margaret to Scotland almost
1000 years ago to escape the Norman Conquest of England. Malcolm her husband gave many of them land in this region.

Above the rivers Clyde and Forth was a different land - once known as Alba - where Picts were the dominant tribal federation until the Scots invaded from the West. Tradition holds they came from Ireland - others argue that they settled North East Ireland (now Ulster) and Dalriada (now Argyle) at the same time. How the king of these Scots became King of the Picts and ruler of Alba is a mystery but it happened and the Picts and Scots of Alba came together to protect themselves from the 'Viking ' threat. Descendants of these Kings of Scots acquired Strathclyde( South West Scotland) and Lothian (South East Scotland) and inter-married with Anglo-Saxons and Anglo-Normans eventually becoming Bruce's and then Stewarts.

In due course the fertile eastern part of Alba was colonised by the lieutenants of these kings leaving the mountains of the West to those of Scotto-Pictish origins who by this time had been thoroughly colonised and dominated by those of Viking descent. These Highlands were the home of Scots who lived with a combination of feudal and tribal loyalties and fell centuries behind their fellow Scots in other regions, in terms of social organisation. This eventually had tragic consequences, romanticised by Scot and now by Americans but much more seriously by Scottish nationalists intent on making Scotland's successful regions believe they shared the fate of these romantic losers.

The Border families were quite different. They were tough frontiersmen living on the raid and sometimes war torn border with England. They were horsemen and they owned and used armour and weapons appropriate to their period and did not charge naked or semi naked down hills as their wide painted ancestors had in the time of the Romans - a tactic Highlanders used into the 18th Century.

John

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Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

m_wyandt — 2011-07-12 16:47:45Z

Elwyn,

This is not what I want to do. I fully understand that it was a territorial thing, which clan your ancestor belonged to. I guess I just want some connection to that *shrug*

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

mi2early — 2011-07-12 14:10:25Z

You may be interested in the group of boards at
Topics > Ethnic / Race > Celtic > Scottish Clans

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

elwynsoutter1 — 2011-07-12 07:27:51Z

John,

For me, I think the problem is that there are lots of people called McGregor whose ancestors were not from the clan McGregor (they just used the patronymic system and were named after a father called Gregor) and others with different surnames who might be from the Mcgregor clan but don't know it.

Flora Macdonald's family background is very famous so it ought to be not too difficult to trace her ancestry but for others with unknown ancestry, not so easy.

Elwyn

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

DonGillies61 — 2011-07-11 22:31:43Z

Meghan,

The cynicism of myself and others in regards to the modern-day perception of clans shouldn't alter your pride in your family heritage or your interest in your family history.

It's just that we prefer to take pride in our own direct ancestors, who we can identify through the vast range of resources available here in Scotland, rather than claiming relationship with anyone who just happens to share the same surname as you.

It's only my personal opinion though, and I fully respect others who have different views to my own. Please feel free to contact me on dgsw07438@sky.com if you would like to continue the discussion.

Don

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

m_wyandt — 2011-07-11 21:01:55Z

John,

Thanks for the uplifting message. I have many Scottish surnames:
Buttergask
Bruce/Brus
Cameron
Campbell
Carrick
de Baltrodi
de Mar
DeLindsay
De Montealto
DeMunro
DeRoss
Douglas
Drummond
Dubh
Fleming
Haliburton/Halyburton
Lauder
Mac Neil
Mac Nicol
MacAulay
MacDonald
MacEth
MacGillebride
Mackay
Mackenzie
MacLeod
MacLochlainn
MacLochlan
MacLocklainn
MacRailt
MacRory
McClung
McMahon
McMickle
Menteith
Mentheith

Naturally, the list goes on. I only went to M.

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

jkshearer — 2011-07-11 19:05:13Z

Dear Meghan,

Don't let these people put you off. I am as Scottish as anyone else who has responded to your emails and although there is truth in what they say it is not the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The clans existed and exist and some people can trace their families back through the centuries.

For example the McGregor's were proscribed by the Scottish king more than four centuries ago and anyone using that name was considered an outlaw and suffer the fate of outlaws and yet people wore that name with pride and ignored the proscription which was not lifted until the end of the 18th Century.

If your ancestor was a tacksman, like Flora Macdonald's husband you family (within the clan) are easily traceable.

It is true in a sense to say that clans were only in existence 200 years ago above the Highland line but this is also a play on words. Were the great Border families and their riever followers different from the clansmen of the north? If not then the famous author Sir Walter Scottt was a clansman himself.

Please list the Scottish surnames you wish to trace and we will tell you something of who they are and how you might find out more.

Regards

John Shearer

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

m_wyandt — 2011-07-11 17:38:12Z

Janet,

Thank you for the information. I realize that the clans are helpful--in fact, that was hope all along was to find "mine" and get them to help me with research. But now, I just cannot bring myself to become a member of something that doesn't really exist---that is to say, something that doesn't predate modern history and go back to my ancestors. But thank you again.

Meghan

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

m_wyandt — 2011-07-11 17:36:16Z

Gordon,

Thank you also for your reply. It was a definite eye-opener as to how misleading things can be. I wish it were as an exciting thing as we are lead to believe but... *shrug* Oh well! :)

Meghan

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

m_wyandt — 2011-07-11 17:35:01Z

Don,

Thank you for your reply. As I told Jim, I will admit Im a bit disappointed. I guess we Americans are gullible and naive when it comes to this kind of stuff, but I am glad to have two genuine Scotsman tell me the truth. I suppose that the "Old Country" has become highly romanticized to us.

Thank you for your honesty, and I will stop the foolish hope of belonging to something that doesnt exist lol

Meghan

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

m_wyandt — 2011-07-11 17:32:36Z

Jim,

While I will admit Im a bit disappointed, it is better to know the truth. I was kind of hoping there really was a tie back to my ancestors, but oh well.

Thank you for your prompt reply.

Meghan

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

jwest211 — 2011-07-11 13:00:10Z

Megan,

I belong to a clan and there are many advantages to belonging to a clan. Mine has a very experienced genealogist to help us with our lines. We can exchange information with others of the same line. That is only two reasons, both good. And I have found more good reasons to join a Clan Society. Choose the clan name that you want to learn more about and find out for yourself. I choose my family name since my grandfather and his family immigrated from Scotland but then I learned of the names of all my Scottish grandmothers.

What the others have said about clans is true but don't let it prevent you from joining a society as there are benefits from joining. You can learn more and you can help others who may be stuck on your line. My email is Wstjs@aol.com if you want to write to me.

Good luck,
Janet

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

GordonPertJohnson — 2011-07-11 12:26:08Z

My Scottish family database has more than 12 thousand people in in, but no known connections to any Clan. Practically all the modern clan societies are based in the USA, where the enthusiasm for Scottish cultural history is greatest.
If you ask any Scotsman (in Scotland) what Clan he belonged to, he most likely would have no answer at all: the concept being a strange one today.
Finally, most of the population of Scotland has never been part of the clan system, and the National Museum of Antiquities of Scotland catalogue which I am looking at says "There is little evidence about Highland dress and the use of distinctive tartans by the clans until the 17th century, and even then it is conflicting. No tartans in the museum are older than the 18th century"
From the above, you might understand why we in Scotland regard the modern Clans more with amusement than anything else. If it appeals to you, by all means join a clan society - they will welcome you with open arms.

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

DonGillies61 — 2011-07-11 05:55:48Z

I couldn't agree more with Jim. Our tourist industry here in Scotland has promoted this fallacy, encouraging people to believe that clans were based solely on surnames. As Jim said, the clan your ancestors belonged to would have been decided by their location, not their surname. It's also worth bearing in mind that your ancestors may not have been part of ANY clan, as many areas of Scotland, particularly in the south and central belt, did not use the clan system at all. Another invention is linking a particular tartan to a clan. This custom (again commercial) only became popular in the 19th century, long after clans ceased to be a reality in Scotland.

The purpose of a clan was to work together for the common good, and to provide protection in numbers. This was only possible if the group was tight-knit, living in the same community. It stands to reason therefore that someone named Campbell for instance who was living in the north-east of Scotland would have no advantage in being part of the Campbell clan, which was located in Argyll in the west.

Another myth is the belief that people of the same surname are all related. When it became popular to use fixed surnames (and in certain areas of Scotland this was often as late as the 19th century), many people chose their occupation (Fisher, Taylor etc). Many others chose a descriptive name (White, Little etc). Others chose a description of where they lived (Hill, Burnside etc). So it's easy to see that there would have been totally unrelated people named Fisher (for example) living all around the coastal areas of Scotland. What purpose could possibly be served by them being in a "Fisher" clan ?

Hope this helps explain the reality M, but if you still want to go ahead and buy into what has became a big industry, then maybe Jim and I should keep quiet !

Re: Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

Grangeburn — 2011-07-10 20:19:29Z

Hi Meghan,
Sorry to burst your bubble but, it's all a myth made-up mostly by Sir Walter Scott and his like in the 19th century. The clan system only existed in the highlands and Islands and after 1745 it was destroyed for ever by the government in England.
To wear a clan tartan means nothing now - if it ever did. The only reason a distinctive weave was worn by a particular group was to identify friends and foe on the battlefield. Basically, you had to fight for the chief of the clan who owned your land and if his name was McDonald and yours Chisholm then too bad.
Here is a very good website that explains it all
http://www.scotland.org.uk/guide/clan-system

Regards,
Jim Leonard,
Motherwell, Scotland.

Determining Which Scottish Clan you Belong To

m_wyandt — 2011-07-10 19:39:38Z

I have Scottish on so many branches of my family tree, but Im not sure which one is the clan that I "belong" to. Do I pick any of them that my ancestors were part of, or am I supposed to follow a specific branch (father's mother's father, etc.)? My paternal side, where my last name comes from, is all German, but my father's grandmother is where our Scottish starts. I want to have my clan crest printed up and apply for membership in the clan. So can anyone tell me how to find which one is "Mine"?

Re: Tartan identification

kmshuman — 2009-03-26 15:32:06Z

I have an article written concerning the Landrum family
(Lendrum) It is registered with the Scottish Tartan Society and is better known as the "MacFarlane" tartan.
The coat of arms is on record in the General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
The first two to come to the America were John and James to Old Rappanhanock County which became Essex county, Virginia
I am related to James who married Mary Browne

Re: Tartan identification

jasper678 — 2008-11-17 11:53:03Z

Yes, you need the colours for tartan identification. They all look alike in black and white. An interesting website is www.tartans.scotland.net/tartan_types/clan.cfm.htm
Hope this helps.
Jasoer

Tartan identification

arich41 — 2008-11-15 10:42:06Z

Hi
Can anyone identify the tartan in the attached photo?
I'm not sure if colour is needed for identification-if it is then I apologise now for asking a stupid question.
Many thanks for looking.
Regards Andrea.

Waterston Tartan

2001-02-11 13:59:21Z

Waterston name could have changed over the years from Waterson. If so your family name is a Sept of the Clan Sinclair. If you are not sure about what tartan to wear then use the place of birth i.e. the District of Dundee Tartan. You could if you wanted use your mother's name or your grandmother's name if they had a recognised tartan. The bottom line is you can wear any tartan you can purchase.

clan/tartan

2001-02-10 20:51:26Z

i was born in dundee 1953 and want to know what tartan i am entitled to wear.i have heard it was weir/buchanan but i need proof of this.