French Nobility - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Re: Marie Henriette Victoire Melanie O'Lally (1771-1836) (Lally-Tollendal)

Charles Phipps — 2013-05-08 14:09:50Z

I have now come across a reference to her: "I had an affaire du coeur with the beautiful Harriet Lally (natural daughter of the famous French General Lally, of Pondicherry), which unfortunately embarrassed my finances considerably." Richard Bayly, Diary of Colonel Bayly, 12th Regiment, 1796-1830, describing his life in Madras in c.1797.

Re: Jean de la Vigne (dict/also called) Hochede or Joh. Lavinius

Martin_Jongkoen — 2013-05-05 16:26:35Z

Jean de la Vigne dict (also called) Hochede or Joh. Lavinius came to Amsterdam (Netherlands) - right after the Fall of Antwerp (17/8/1585)->conquered by Catholic Spain - were he was a protestant Reverend untill he died (1622).

In Antwerp (Belgium) he's mentioned as Reverend of the French Church from 1570 (perhaps) untill the Fall of Antwerp (17/8/1585).

Hugenots were Protestants from France.

See for his picture:

http://www.derooboeken.nl/Data/collectie/gformat/12219IMG_84...

Greetings,

Martin Jongkoen (Zwolle/Netherlands)

Re: de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe

janeperkins2219 — 2013-01-06 17:55:06Z

Hello i believe i am descended from the Liardets of Lausanne , Jean Liardet came to England in 1797 and married his Maria, an Austrian lady in London.Any iformation you can find out i would appreiate. I believe the Liardets originated in Estern France.

Re: de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe

janeperkins2219 — 2013-01-06 17:55:03Z

Re: Help, please, translating a Pere Anselme entry

MIKEPOTASKI — 2012-12-16 20:32:19Z

Thank you

Re: Help, please, translating a Pere Anselme entry

Jim_Lalone — 2012-12-16 18:18:01Z

Something about pleading in 1325 against the chapter of Noyon and against the Vidame de Chartres in 1329 & 1334 for the legacy that his wife had made in his will. (per google translator)

I am descended from the family - the following is some of what I have:
Generation One

1. Adam le FLAMENC title: Sgr. of Cany, (son of Raoul III, Seigneur de CANY and Ade de MAGNY).

He married unknown.

Children:
2. i. Raoul IV le.

Generation Two

2. Raoul IV le FLAMENC, also known as de Cany.

He married Marie _____.

Children:
3. i. Raoul V le b. c. 1210/50.

Generation Three

3. Raoul V le FLAMENC title: Seigneur de Cany, b. c. 1210/50. Unsure of 2m. & children may be from first. Anselme gives 2m and children from it.

See writeup in Fr. Wikipedia.

Eng. Trans:
Raoul is the son of Raoul IV Flamenc, Lord of Cany, Varesnes, Beaulincourt, and Mary N. [2]

Il est le descendant d'une famille seigneuriale, possessionné principalement aux environs Canny-sur-Matz , en Picardie . He is the scion of a noble family, possessionné mainly around Canny-sur-Matz, in Picardy. Leur autre terre, Varesnes est une seigneurie considérable. Their other land, Varesnes is a considerable lordship. Elle appartient dès 1128 à Raoul I er Le Flamenc. It is from 1128 to Ralph I. The Flamenc. Adam de Canny, son petit-fils, concède en 1226 divers droits d'usage aux habitants et Raoul IV, père de ce maréchal de France , en 1248, cède les redevances à sa femme Marie, dont nous ne connaissons que le prénom. Adam Canny, her grand-son, in 1226 grants various rights to use the inhabitants and Raoul IV, father of the Marshal of France in 1248, sells royalties to his wife Mary, whom we know only the first name.

Raoul V The Flamenc takes part in the Seventh Crusade [3]. Saint Louis began this crusade in 1248 with the blessing of Pope Innocent IV. Ils partent d' Aigues-Mortes en France en 1248. They leave of Aigues-Mortes in France in 1248. Les croisés hivernent à Chypre , avant de partir guerroyer contre l' Égypte et la Syrie . The Crusaders are wintering in Cyprus, before leaving guerroyer against the Egypt and Syria. La croisade prend fin en 1254 . The crusade ends in 1254.

Les croisés s'emparent facilement de Damiette en 1249 . The Crusaders easily captured Damietta in 1249. Mais après ces premiers succès, l'armée prend Mansourah et s'y trouve prise au piège et victime d'une épidémie. But after these early successes, the army takes Mansourah and there trapped and the victim of an epidemic. Saint Louis, affaibli, bat en retraite. Saint Louis, weakened, beat a retreat. Il est même fait prisonnier avec deux de ses frères. It is even captured with two of his brothers. Il est obligé, pour recouvrer sa liberté de payer 400 000 besants d'or. It is obliged to recover its freedom to pay 400 000 besants gold. Enfin, le roi et son armée sont battus à la Fariskur , en mai 1250. Finally, the king and his army have fought the Fariskur in May 1250.

Raoul V Le Flamenc est cinquième seigneur de Cany en 1270. The Flamenc Raoul V is the fifth lord of Cany in 1270.

Raoul V Le Flamenc est porté dans la liste de Ducange comme ayant six chevaliers mangeant avec lui à l'hôtel du roi. Raoul V The Flamenc is covered in the list with six Ducange as knights eat with him at the hotel of the king.

Nous le retrouvons cité à la croisade d'Aragon du roi Philippe le Hardi en 1284 [ 4 ] . We find the city of Aragon crusade of King Philip the Bold in 1284 [4]. Il est qualifié de maréchal de France . It is described as a marshal of France. . . .

Raoul V The Flamenc married Helvide of Conflans, daughter of Eustache II Torchapeaux, sr Conflans and Mareuil, nephew of Count de Brienne, Marshal of Champagne and Helvide of Thourotte.

Le Père Anselme, tome VI, p.638 note un 2 e mariage avec Jeanne de Chaumont en précisant : On n'a pu sçavoir de laquelle de ces deux femmes vinrent ses enfants. Father Anselme, Volume VI, p.638 note a 2 nd marriage to Jeanne de Chaumont stating: It could not sçavoir which of these two women came to her children.

Il a au moins sept enfants dont : It has at least seven children including:

Isabelle x Robert, seigneur de Beaumetz et châtelain de Bapaume , Isabelle x Robert, lord of Beaumetz and castellan of Bapaume,
Raoul VI, qui meurt très jeune à la bataille des éperons d'or , en 1302 [ 6 ] Raoul VI, who died very early in the battle spurs gold in 1302 [6]
et une nombreuse descendance. and a large offspring.

[ modifier ] Notes et références de l'article [Change] Notes and references to Article
? Galeries historiques du Palais de Versailles, Par Charles Gavard, p. ? Galleries historic Palais de Versailles, By Charles Gavard, p. 78
? Héraldique et Généalogie , 99.I.134. ? Genealogy and Heraldry, 99.I.134. Flammenc.
? Dictionnaire des inventions et découvertes anciennes et modernes , par Achille François Jouffroy d'Abbans, p.368. ? Dictionary inventions and discoveries of ancient and modern, by Achille François d'Abbans Jouffroy, p.368. Il figurera dans la IV e salle des croisades à Versailles He will appear in the Fourth crusades room in Versailles
? Dictionnaire historique et biographique des généraux français, depuis le onzième siècle jusqu'en ... , p.83 ? Dictionary historical and biographical generals french since the eleventh century until ..., p.83
? Et De l'ancienne France , Par Saint-Allais (Nicolas Viton), p.456. ? And the former France, By Saint-Allais (Nicolas Viton), p.456.
? Chronique artésienne (1295-1304) , Par Frantz Funck-Brentano, p.50. ? Chronicle artésienne (1295-1304), Frantz By Funck-Brentano, p.50. Les Oeuvres complètes d'Étienne Jouy ... The complete works of Etienne Jouy ... avec des éclaircissements et des notes... , par Étienne de Jouy, p.255 nous précise que : Le maréchal Guy de Clermont fermait la marche, à la tête de deux compagnies d'archers dont l'une était commandée par le fils du brave Raoul de Flamenc . with clarifications and notes ..., by Etienne de Jouy, p.255 we said that: The Marshal Guy de Clermont closed the march at the head of two companies archers one of which was commissioned by the son of brave Raoul de Flamenc.

[ modifier ] Bibliographie [Change] Bibliography
Le Père ANSELME, Histoire de la maison royale de France et des grands officiers de la couronne. , 3e éd. Father ANSELME, History of the royal house of France and major officers of the crown., 3rd ed. Paris, 1726-1733, 9 vol., tome : 6, Cote BnF : Fol. Paris, 1726-1733, vol 9., Volume: 6, Cote BnF: Fol. Lm3. 398.

.

(1) He married Helvide de CONFLANS, (daughter of Eustache II de CONFLANS and Helvide de THOROTE).

(2) He married Jeanne de CHAUMONT, b. c. 1215,1 d. 1299, buried in Morfontaines.

Children:
4. i. Raoul VI le.
5. ii. Isabeau Le b. c. 1235.

Generation Four

4. Raoul VI le FLAMENC, also known as de Cany, d. 11 Jul 1302, (see note 1). Unsure of mother. Also listed from 1st marriage.

Married Eleonore de HANGEST, also known as d' ANGEL, (daughter of Aubert V de HANGEST and Agnes de BRUYÈRES) d. 1336. Eleonore: http://web.genealogie.free.fr/Les_dynasties/Les_dynasties_ce...
.

Children:
6. i. Raoul VII le b. 1298.

5. Isabeau Le FLAMENC, b. c. 1235. Anselme states she m. Jean de GUNY, Sgr. of Esmevilly.

Married Robert de BEAUMETZ title: châtelain de Bapaume, b. 1235, (son of Gilles II de BEAUMETZ and Jeanne de BAILLEUL).

Children:
7. i. Robert de b. c. 1255.

Generation Five

6. Raoul VII le FLAMENC title: Sgr. of Canny, Varennes, Baboeuf, Appilly, etc., b. 1298 - 1306, d. 1358. Souverain Maitre d'hotel de la Reine.

Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln, Band VII 79
Margry, "des seigneurs de Canny et Varesnes", p 15-18
Anselme, Maison Royale de France, VI 638-639.

(1) Married2 Jeanne de CHARTRES, d. 1325.2

(2) Married 1325, , Yolande d‘ENGHIEN, (daughter of Gauthier III d'ENGHIEN and Yolande de DAMPIERRE). Yolande: Unsure of parentage.

Children:
8. i. Raoul VIII le.

7. Robert de BEAUMETZ title: seigneur de Bombers, b. c. 1255.1 Unsure of wife & child.

Married1 Isabeau _____, b. c. 1260.1

Children:
9. i. Louise de b. c. 1280.

Generation Six

8. Raoul VIII le FLAMENC title: Seigneur de Cany, Varennes, also known as Robert (see note 2).
See http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=... for rest of Flamenc lineage.

Aubert le Flamenc, Seigneur de Cany +1406 Chevalier, Conseiller, chambellan du Roi

oo Yolande d‘Enghien oder Mariette geb. um 1380

Raoul le Flamenc, Seigneur de Cany

oo Marie Clermont, de Nesle

Raoul VII. le Flamenc, *1306 +1358 Souverain Maitre d'hotel de la Reine 1324

oo 1325 Yolande d‘Enghien

Raoul VI. le Flamenc, de Cany, 1248 -1302 Bataille de Courtrai

oo Eleonore de Hangest + 1336

Raoul V. le Flamenc, Seigneur de Cany, * ca.1250, Französischer Marschall 1285

oo Helvide de Conflans oo II. Jeanne de Chaumont en precisant ser enfant

Raoul IV. le Flamenc de Cany

oo Marie

Adam le Flamenc 1226

Raoul III. Seigneur de Cany, * Picardie +nach 1219 (1199)

oo Ade de Magn, Hodierne

Raoul II.

Raoul I. Seigneur de Canny, de Varennes, +1128

Margry, "des seigneurs de Canny et Varesnes", p 18-19
Anselme, Maison Royale de France, VI, p. 639.

Married c. 1356,5, Marie de NESLE, also known as MELLO, (daughter of Guy de NESLE and Jeanne de BRUYÈRES).

Children:
i. Aubert le FLAMENC title: Seigneur de Can(n)y et de Varenne.
Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln, Band VII 78
Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln, Band XIII 32
Margry, "des seigneurs de Canny et Varesnes", p 19-26
Anselme, Maison Royale de France, VI 639
.

Married 1389,5 Marie d'ENGHEIN title: Dame de Fagnolles, (daughter of Jacques d'ENGHEIN and Marie de ROUCY). Marie: See Yolande, basically id as the same.

Marie d'Enghien
Dame de Fagnolles
Married Aubert le Flamenc, Seigneur de Canny
Child by (a) Louis, Duc d'Orléans, son of Charles V, King
of France 1364-1380 and Jeanne de Bourbon
Born 13 March 1372 Paris
Died 23 November 1407 Paris (murdered)
Children, Generation XX-1315.

9. Louise de BEAUMETZ, b. c. 1280,1 d. bef. 1323.1

Married1, Jean de SANCERRE title: Sgr. de Charenton, b. c. 1260 in Sancerre,1 (son of Jean I de SANCERRE and Marie de VIERZON) d. 1327,1,8 buried in eglise des Jacobins de Bourges.1,8

Children:
i. Louis de SANCERRE title: seigneur de Meillant, b. c. 1305,1 d. 26 Aug 1346 in Crécy, Ponthieu,1,8 (see note 3).

Married Jul 1329,1,8 Beatrice de PIERREPONT title: dame de Villebeon, also known as ROUCY, b. c. 1310,1 (daughter of Jean V de ROUCY and Marguerite de BEAUMETZ) d. aft. 1348.1

ii. Jeanne de SANCERRE, d. 1354. ,8

Married9,8 Jean de CHÂTILLON title: Sgr. of Chatillon-sur-Marne, Gandelus, Troissy, (son of Gaucher V de CHÂTILLON and Isabelle de DREUX) d. 1363.

Note 1 Killed at the battle of Courtenay.
Note 2 ES III-4, table 655.
Note 3 Killed.

Sources: (unfortunately drops the source numbers when I copy them over)

Alain de Carné, Forez, Loire, France, Généalogie de Carné (http://a.decarne.free.fr/gencar/gencar.htm).
Pere Anselme, Augustin Dechausse, cont. by M. DuFourny, HISTOIRE GENEALOGIQUE ET CHRONOLOGIQUE DE LA MAISON ROYALE DE FRANCE (Campagnie des Libraires, 3rd ed., Paris, FR, 1733), 6:638.
de La Chenaye-Desbois et Badier, _____, DICTIONNAIRE DE LA NOBLESSE (Chez Schlesinger freres, Paris, 1873, 3rd edition), 4:424.
de La Chenaye-Desbois et Badier, _____, DICTIONNAIRE DE LA NOBLESSE (Chez Schlesinger freres, Paris, 1873, 3rd edition), 2:664.
Pere Anselme, Augustin Dechausse, cont. by M. DuFourny, HISTOIRE GENEALOGIQUE ET CHRONOLOGIQUE DE LA MAISON ROYALE DE FRANCE (Campagnie des Libraires, 3rd ed., Paris, FR, 1733), 6:639.
Schwennicke, Detlev (Herausgeber), Europäische Stammtafeln, Neue Folge Bd. VII, Familien des A lten Lotharingen II (Verlag von J. A. Stargard, Marburg 1979), table 79.
de La Chenaye-Desbois et Badier, Francois Alexandre Aubert, Dictionnaire de la Noblesse (Kraus Reprint. Nendeln/Liechtenstein, 1969, 3rd edition), 5:925.
Schwennicke, Detlev (Herausgeber), Europäische Stammtafeln, Neue Folge Bd. III, Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten (Verlag von J. A. Stargard, Marburg 1984), II table 112.
de La Chenaye-Desbois et Badier, Francois Alexandre Aubert, Dictionnaire de la Noblesse (Kraus Reprint. Nendeln/Liechtenstein, 1969, 3rd edition), 5:477.
Stokvis, A.-M.-H.-J., MANUEL D'HISTOIRE, DE GENEALOGIE ET DE CHRONOLOGIE DE TOUS LES ETATS DU GLOBE (E. J. Brill, Leide, 1888), 2:55.

Help, please, translating a Pere Anselme entry

MIKEPOTASKI — 2012-10-06 11:31:55Z

In Volume VI on the le Flamanc:

...plaidoit en 1325 contre le chapitre de Noyon & contre le vidame de Chartres en 1329 & 1334 pour le legs que sa femme lui avoit fait par son testament.

Also, he was held prisoner with his sons Raoul, Jean, and Aubert "a la journee de Malconseil pres Creil en 1358"

for which he paid a ransom/bond/surety "ranson dix moutons d'or"

Thanks for the help

Duquesne Guiton Murphy and LaSalle

photo66666 — 2012-06-19 18:32:26Z

The center of the is family is Agatha Murphy who was the daughter of King Louis XV. She would be the sister-in-law of Marie Antoinette.

Other families members include Prince Rinier, his wife Princes Grace Kelly of Philadelphia. Her father Judge John B Kelly, the Murphy family of LaSalle University in Philadelphia. Also looking at the Franklin family of Benjamin Franklin of Philadelphia.

Also included is General Lafayette and his foster brother Dr Felix Brunot and General Lafayette's daughter Virginia Marie Antoinette Lafayette. I am also interested in General Lafayette's friend Bishop Duboise and his school chum by the name of Robespierre. I am also looking at Simon the Shoemaker and a fort in Pittsburgh called Fort Duquesne and a fellow by the name of Albert Gallatin from Pittsburgh.

I am also looking at three hunters for John Jacob Astor and his business partner Irish Catholic Cornelous Heeney. They were Hunter Tim Murphy, Hunter Robert Stuart and Hunter John Myers.

Last I am looking for the family of Catholic Prince Charles Edward Stuart who was to marry Agatha Murphy. Some records suggest he was related to King James Stuart who had a meeting with Pocahontas and the Randolph family at Richmond House in the early 1600's.

Prince Rainier and Agatha Murphy

photo66666 — 2012-06-16 04:10:34Z

I am trying to connect Prince Rainier to the Murphy family of Agatha Murphy. I have a record that the Murphy family of Agatha Murphy was evacuated to Asylum PA by Albert Gallatin in 1794.

This same family was in charge of LaSalle University in Philadelphia in the 1930's at a time that one of the largest donors to the School was Judge John B Kelly. Judge Kelly was Princes Grace Kelly's father. Records are very clear that Prince Rainier married Actress Grace Kelly the daughter of Judge John B Kelly of Philadelphia. She was known as Princes Grace Kelly.

At first, LaSalle University admited that Judge John B Kelly was Princes Grace Kelly's father until I pointed out the Murphys running LaSalle University were from Asylum PA. At that point, the records of day to day operations of LaSalle University from 1930 to 1940, the time LaSalle University was headed by the Murphy family, has been sealed. They have taken the position that Catholic Judge John B Kelly could be a number of many Judges named John B Kelly in Philadelphia in the 1930's.

Although Philadelphia records do not support this statement.

Prince Rainier

photo66666 — 2012-06-16 01:20:32Z

So exactly who was Prince Rainier related to? I do know he married actress Grace Kelly and her father was Judge John B Kelly of Philadelphia.

He and his wife were close friends with the Murphy family from Asylum PA who ran LaSalle University in the 1930's.

On the wall in the main area of the University, the name Hon John B Kelly sits with a few other well known Catholic names. At first, the University claimed that was Princes Grace Kelly's father. Later they said they were mistaken as there where many Catholic Judge John B Kellys in the Philadelphia area in the 1930's.

Then they decided to seal all the operation records of the Murphy family on the Murphy family running LaSalle University in the 1930's.

General Lafayette

photo66666 — 2012-06-14 21:05:50Z

Would General Lafayette or his daughter Virginia Marie Antoinette know this Murphy family? General Lafayette started Mount St Mary's College in Emmitsburg MD with the Calvert family of Lord Baltimore and Bishop Duboise.

The Good General's foster brother, Dr Felix Brunot, is buried in Pittsburgh at Allegheny Cemetery. The rest of the Murphy and LaFayette group are buried at Versailles Cemetery in Pittsburgh.

One big donor to the restoration of Versailles in France was Franklin Murphy.

Do you think Benjamin Franklin would know this Murphy family?

The records clearly show Albert Gallatin saving a Murphy family living at Versailles Paris in 1794. Then records are clear they are living at Asylum PA in 1795.

I know for sure this Murphy family had a connection to Princes Grace Kelly in Philadelphia through LaSalle University.

My take is that the Murphys belong to the Duquesne Guiton Murphy and LaSalle family of Explorer Robert LaSalle.

Re: Agatha Murphy

Lindacalvert11 — 2012-06-14 19:09:09Z

As an illegitimate daughter of Louis XV, Agathe's birth, baptism, marriage & death are all clearly recorded and she definitely died in 1774, just months after Louis XV.

She was survived by her mother, Marie-Louise O'Murphy, who went on to marry three times and had several children, and who was imprisoned during the French revolution because of her connection to the royal family. She managed to survive that and died in 1814 age 77.

Marie-Louise was one of seven children so I suppose it's possible that the Murphy's you are looking at could be part of her extended family.

Linda

Re: Agatha Murphy

photo66666 — 2012-06-14 15:50:40Z

That is interesting.

The record I have is her Murphy family was evacuated to Asylum PA in 1794 by Albert Gallatin and Benjamin Franklin. Prince Father Galitzen was the paster of Asylum PA. I have a book on Asylum PA and the approval process of Asylum PA headed by Robert Morris out of Philadelphia.

The Gratz/Myers family out of Philadelphia had the contract for Asylum PA Supplies.

Thus my research. I find the Murphys involved in Benjamin Franklin's bank called The Corn Exchange Bank in Philadelphia and LaSalle University in the 1930's.

I actually have more on this that involves Judge John B Kelly the father of Princes Grace Kelly.

Re: Agatha Murphy

Lindacalvert11 — 2012-06-14 06:49:33Z

Hi
I think the Agatha you're looking for is Agathe Louise de Saint-Antoine b.20 May 1754 in Paris. She was an illegitimate daughter of Louis XV by his mistress Marie-Louise O'Murphy.

Records indicate that Agathe married Rene Jean de la Tour du Pin, marquis de la Charce and died just nine months later on 6 Sept 1774 following a miscarriage. (And 15 years before the French Revolution).

Linda

Agatha Murphy

photo66666 — 2012-06-13 10:14:05Z

I am doing research on Agatha Murphy who was Marie Antionette's sister-in-law. It was said Agatha Murphy was evacuated to Asylum PA by Albert Gallatin during the French Revolution. She was part of the French Duquesne, Guiton, Murphy and LaSalle clan of Explorer Robert LaSalle and Hunter Tim Murphy. Hunter Tim Murphy was an associate of General Lafayette at the Battle of Saratoga.

I was wondering if anyone had records on Agatha Murphy other then she was the daughter of King Louis XV.

Re: Royalty really?

elomax172 — 2012-05-18 20:11:05Z

Hi sharonawelsh1!
I'm pretty much in the same predicament, which means that we MIGHT be VERY VERY distant cousins. (HI COUSIN!)

I found a woman as a common ancestor for both my parents, Joan de Braose, year 1280. Mother's side from her first marriage, Father's side from her second. (Mind-boggling, isn't it?) This leads both sides back to Henry II and earlier.

I do believe that jplalone is correct though. I've been trying to make sure that every individual is backed up by nice clear records and good research -- but I know that I just copied information from a few trees here and there. I'm not putting any bets on the info. until I document everybody.

Re: Royalty really?

jplalone — 2012-04-19 15:24:09Z

Sharon, you must do your homework. I cannot tell you how many hours I have wasted following someone's genealogy (where I have a common ancestor) only to find that the genealogy posted is wrong. I am finding that the genealogies posted in WorldConnect on RootsWeb have about an 80% error rate. Look at Genealogics (use google), it is considered one of the better sites for royalty and nobility. See also ANCESTRAL ROOTS OF CERTAIN AMERICAN COLONISTS WHO CAME TO AMERICA BEFORE 1700, by Frederick Lewis Weis (now in 8th edition).

See also the following for more help in researching medieval and noble ancestors:

GENERAL “HOW TO” OR BACKGROUND INFO:
Bird, Jack. "Some Sources for French Genealogy and Heraldry." The Genealogists' Magazine 13:8 (December 1960): 237-241.

Bouchard, Constance B. "Consanguinity and Noble Marriages in the Tenth and Eleventh Centuries." Speculum 56:2 (1981): 268-287.
Interesting discussion of consanguinity among the nobility and the impact of the Catholic Church's changing rules. Consanguinity often becomes a crucial issue when trying to untangle possible relationships among Medieval people.

Durye, Pierre (trans. By Wilson Ober Clough). Genealogy: an introduction to continental concepts. New Orleans: Polyanthos, 1977.

Lart, Charles E. "French Noblesse." The Genealogists' Magazine 7:5 (March 1936): 229-242.

Medieval genealogy: how to find your medieval ancestors by Paul Chambers

Feudal genealogy by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr.

Records & record searching: a guide to the genealogist & topographer, by Walter Rye

DICTIONARIES & OTHER REFERENCE TITLES:

Central European genealogical terminology by Jared H. Suess.

Dictionnaire des fiefs, seigneuries, chatellenies, etc. de l’Ancienne France, by Henri Gourdon Genouillac (1862). (google books)
List - like a gazetteer.

A to ZAX: a glossary of terminology for genealogists and social historians, by Barbara Jean Evans.

The Genealogist’s encyclopedia, by L.G. Pine

Medieval wordbook: more than 4,000 terms and expressions from medieval culture, by Madeleine Pelner Cosman.

A Manual for the genealogist, topographer, antiquary, and legal professor, by Richard Sims (google book)

Bouillet, M.-N., Atlas de universel d’histoire et de geographie. Librarie de L. Hachette et Cie., 1865. (google book)

Innes of Learney, Thomas, Scots Heraldry. A practical handbook on the historical principles and modern application of the art and science, Genealogical Publishing Co., 2nd ed., repr. 1973.

Louda, Jiri. Heraldry of the royal families of Europe. New York: Clarkson Potter, 1981.
A great book for armchair browsing and background reading. The information in the charts is unexceptional, but they are accompanied by full-color blazons.

Palliser, Bury (Mrs.). Historic devices, badges, and war-cries. London: Sampson Low, 1870 (Detroit: Gale Research Co., 1971). [available in a microform edition]
In addition to formal heraldry, many noble families and individuals through history have adopted informal, personal visual emblems and symbolic phrases and mottoes. Ferdinand "the Catholic" of Spain employed the Gordian Knot cleft with a sword to symbolize his conquest of Moorish Granada and the motto Tanto mounta ("Tantamount") to indicate his assumed equality with his queen, Isabella (a notion which the Castilians never admitted). The book brims with addictive miscellanea and minutiae of history at the personal level. Feuds, jealousy, and ambition from all corners of Europe are represented . . . and more than a few puzzles, such as the unknown symbolism behind the device of "an elephant looking at the moon in adoration."

Parker, James. A Glossary of terms used in heraldry. New edition. Oxford: James Parker & Co., 1894 (repr: Newton Abbot: David & Charles, 1970).
If you don't know the difference between "masculy" and "lozengy," or if you can't envision a "gilly-flower," this is the book for you. Besides the more than 600 pages of alphabetical, often illustrated listings, Parker includes a complete synoptical table of principal terms, logically and systematically arranged. It's also easy to become absorbed in the longer articles on heraldic oddities like the "Collar of SS" and the putative arms of Prester John.

Rothery, Guy Cadogan, Concise encyclopedia of heraldry, Studio Editions, Ltd., repr. 1995

Schweitzer. Frederick M. & Harry E. Wedeck, (eds.), Dictionary of the Renaissance, Philosophical Library, 1967.

Williamson, David, Debrett’s guide to heraldry and regalia, Headline Book Pub., 1992.

Good luck.

Re: Royalty really?

chrisbouyer1 — 2012-03-20 13:14:30Z

Do you have the details of each generation ?

if it is true, every generation could be verified.

Kings and royal families do have a lot of descendants, especially through daughters, so it can be real, but must be checked.

you may contact me directly if you wish to send me more details : chrisbouyer@yahoo.fr

Christophe

Royalty really?

sharonawelsh1 — 2012-03-19 22:39:39Z

I have by following the leaves followed both sides of my parents to my 18th grandparents who where Edward1 and King Henry. Can this be real?? Then goes onto more royal as they intermarried. How do I find out if this is true??

Re: Marquis de Bergerac?

frispelt — 2012-02-26 22:33:31Z

well, most likely his name was from either Gascognian aristocrats or a Sardinian fish-monger. ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrano_de_Bergerac_(person)

Re: de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe

theovens1 — 2012-02-20 09:58:49Z

Dear Gwynne,

many thanks for your prompt reply, it is most appreciated.
I can give you more details on my family tree which is extensive, but can you give me also the contact details of Angela Daymond in Wellington.

Best wishes
Rachel

Re: de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe

gwynneho — 2012-02-20 09:43:08Z

Dear Rachel,

I also was told that our 5/6x great grandmother Countess Perpetue de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe escaped to England in a dung cart and another cousin heard she had dyed her face with walnut juice but that is all I'm afraid. Angela Daymond in New Zealand has probably done more thorough research on that line of the family than anyone.

If you want to send more details of your line please feel free on gwynneho@tpg.com.au.

Regards,

Gwynne

Re: de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe

theovens1 — 2012-02-20 08:01:47Z

Dear Gwynneho,
I am reading your posting 2008 and am also a relative of La Comtesse Perpetue Catherine De Paul De Lamanon D'Albe 1768-
1845 ( my grandmother x 5 or 6 I am 52 now). I am
most interested to know more about the great story of her escape from France in a dung cart. I am publishing a book with the first chapter on genealogy. It would be wonderful to hear your comments on this topic and I would most appreciate your reply.
Yours sincerely
Rachel

Duel in Paris

argonia — 2012-02-04 04:51:28Z

My GG grandfather fled France about 1848-1850 after he had killed a cousin in a duel. He was probably about 16-18 when it happened. I have his birthdate but he changed his name in America, and never revealed his French name. He claimed birth in New York all his life, but his daughters knew otherwise. It was rumored the cousin may have been connected to the French royal family. I've always thought if the cousin could be identified, perhaps authorities would have records of his suspected slayer. Anyone have any ideas?

Re: La Famille de Berthelot

vincentmollet — 2011-08-13 11:04:21Z

Hello from France,
The only problem with Charlemagne's sister Berthe, his brother-in-law Milon and his nephew Berthelot, is that they're only mentioned in legends, and several centuries after Charlemagne's time. Berthe and Milon appear first in a text from around 1200, at best. Berthelot (more exactly "Bertolai" in the first version) appears in a chanson de geste from the 12th Century, "Renaud de Montauban" (and it's unclear if he's supposed to be the son of Berthe, or of some other sister/brother of Charlemagne). So more likely at some point someone in the Berthelot family read/heard those legends and thought "oh, that's fun, there are people called Berthe and Berthelot in there, what if we were their descendants? That would make us related to Charlemagne."
Regards
Vincent

Re: La Famille de Berthelot

BrianSheffey — 2011-07-06 09:25:00Z

Thank you for your reply. The earliest confirmed member of this family I have details for is Robert de Berthelot (b. 1015). He and his son Adam were from Lisieux, Normandy. They left Lisieux as part of William the Conqueror's invasion of England.

Re: La Famille de Berthelot

BarriosdeLeon — 2011-07-06 02:57:47Z

I know of two de Berthelot families of Bretagne, France. The Berthelot du Chesnay from Saint-Malo and the Berthelot de La Gletais from Frossay. Which do you belong to?

Re: DeMoss, Dumas, or Damas (Barons and Counts)

BarriosdeLeon — 2011-07-05 23:41:31Z

There are several Dumas families that were titled aristocrats: The Dumas family of Languedoc(Extinct), Dumas des Cultures family(Extinct), Dumas de Marveille(Extinct) and the Dumas de Chebrac and Dumas de Salvert families from Angoumois. This information is from E. de Sereville's Dictionanaire de La Nobless Francaise. I hope this helps

Re: DeMoss, Dumas, or Damas (Barons and Counts)

loraleehughes — 2011-06-23 08:53:38Z

My family are related to Demoss as well. After 2 years of research we have come up with a hoard of info. We are the Douglass line who married Lucinda Demoss. She was the daughter of one of the 2 boys who came from Holland to America.
One of the boys was Charles.

La Famille de Berthelot

BrianSheffey — 2011-06-13 13:37:19Z

I am a descendant of Elizabeth Bartelot, a descendant of Robrt de Berthelot (born abt 1015 of Lisieux, France. Robert arrived in England in 1066 as part of William The Conqueror's invading army.

I have a substantial amount of information about the family after they arrive in England. However, I know nothing about Robert Berthelot's lineage except for a family claim to be descendend from Berthe, Charlegmangne's sister (who married Milo deVere, Count of Anjou)through a son named Berthelot. I'm trying to confirm this.

Any information about the de Berthelot familly in France prior to Robert de Berthelot would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Jean de la Vigne

harrisunwin — 2011-04-29 23:00:01Z

hello there i am related to Jean de la Vigne also and i am seeking more information also. I know as much as you do so i can't help you.
Chelsea

Re: de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe

brucerankin_1 — 2011-04-14 01:51:25Z

James Duigan and Mary Broad are also my great granparents, so which cousin or second cousin are you? My grandmother was Lorna Mary Duigan who married Raymond Wilson - both died on the same day in the 1918 flu epidemic in Auckland NZ, leaving their 3 children Heather 6, Barbara 4 (my mother) and Denis 1 1/2 orphaned. They were then brought up by the Duigan family in Wanganui.

We also have scraps of info on the Liardet connection and the Evelyn family tree going back to the 12th century, coutesy of research by Cynthia Duigan/Warde and sister Sidney Duigan's son Paul Koreneff....the de facto Duigan family historian!

Should we be in touch?

de Grossoles/de Sevignè/Vigier - France - Norway

mishaseattle — 2011-04-13 09:04:15Z

Hi,

I am trying to locate an ancestor of mine who fled from France to Norway around 1789. In Norway he called himself "Ludig Fredrik Vegult".

I learn of one Emmanuel-Francois de Grossoles (1734-1780) who had the title "Grand Louvetier" (manager of the Royal Hunting Ground)who apparently was married to a woman called du Vigier. He passed his title along to his son but he is supposed to have eacaped to Norway with his misstress who was of the de Sevignèr family.

The story fits very well with the family legends of Vegult. it is indeed difficult to read the old churchrecords but it is possible that the son used his mothers name when entering Norway and Scandinavianized the name to wegult. according to our family legends he abducted a woman of noble blood from a monestery and brough her with him on his escape. However our family legend says the name of the woman was "de la Rochefoucauld"but this seems not to be possible.

Is anyone familiar with the story of de Grossoles?

BR

Dag Lundqvist
Oslo, Norway

I am having difficulty believing this.

GFox619 — 2011-04-08 21:54:41Z

Ok, so I am descended from this woman named Catherine Stradling. Supposedly she is somehow descended from Robert the Strong of France; I just don't know how. I actually don't entirely believe half of the "royal" connections I find but I am interested in how she is related to Robert the Strong. If anyone knows that would be great.

Thanks,

G.Fox

General Lafayette

photo66666 — 2011-04-04 03:36:22Z

Any experts on General Lafayette out there? I am trying to research a claim that General Lafayette help start Mount St Mary's College in Emmitsburg MD with Bishop DuBoise. The second claim I am trying to research is Dr Felix Brunot of Brunot Island in Pittsburgh was the foster brother of General Lafayette. The third claim is the Lafayette family in America used the name Fay or Faix. Last claim is that some of the Capet family were at the Battle of Yorktown under General Lafayette's command.

Denise de Mortaigne

RollerPoodle — 2011-03-17 14:30:17Z

Daughter of Robert, Count Mortaigne, and Maud de Montgomery.

Denise was born in 1075.

My family tree here has Denise as my ancestor, through her marriage to William Fitzrichard (1089-1130.) Their son, Robert Fitzwilliam de Cardinham (1115-1177.)

I know there is possibly a lot of false information out there. Any thoughts?

I've found some pages that say Denise only married once to Guy Laval, and other pages that have her married to Fitzrichard as above. Any help is appreciated.

Re: Hiltrude Alsace- Fastrada- Charlemagne Hugh de Tours

superchief871 — 2011-02-18 19:05:43Z

I'm going in the same circles. Let me try Google again.
Bob Shaw
superchief87@roadrunner.com

Guy deLancey 1432

DeLanceyDavid — 2011-02-13 21:22:40Z

You can find more of this at www.AncientlyDeLancey.com Although this is how the site name is www.Anciently DeLancey.com with a space I'm not sure if it matters though this way it will have to be typed in. I'm always adding more information to it. Its one of those quiet names, it used to be anyway. I have a second page there I am working on and my skills are improoving. The 2nd page is titled Art Economics History
Till then 4:18 P.M. E.S.T. 2-13-2011

This name was also spelled as Lancsi Lanci and Lancy The Lacy surname is related to it as well as DeLaval and many more which I am still yet prooving. Of course many names are related especially with nobility for in order to start a new or just continue one would have to have some form of representation.

Re: Marie Henriette Victoire Melanie O'Lally (1771-1836) (Lally-Tollendal)

natalieshaw71 — 2011-02-13 07:32:18Z

Please could you tell me where you obtained the information for Edward Studd's death date of 1813?

I am researching into the correspondents of Sir Joseph Banks - see New South wales Library Banks Series: 20.65 and 20.66.
I have the following info on him from the British Library India Office see entry LMAR in http://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/Sources.aspx#L/MAR. 1758- Bap 16 Oct 1758 Westerfield Suffolk of John and Ann. Studd became an apprentice seaman in the coasting trade for 2 years in the Debay followed by three years as a seaman in the Mary trading from Yarmouth. By 1776 he had joined the marine service of the East India Company, sailing between Britain, India and China . Studd's career with the Company progressed steadily: seaman on the Resolution (1776–7); midshipman on the Alfred (1778-9); third officer on the Calcutta (1781–2); second then first officer on the Manship (1785–1791). Finally in 1793 he was promoted to his first command, the 1193- ton East Indiaman Taunton Castle.Between 1794–8, he commanded her on two voyages to China and Bombay.
His voyages on the East India Company ships can be viewed in 'A register of ships, employed in the service of the Honorable the United East India Company' (on google books full view). Googling 'Taunton Castle Woodford Studd' will show his involvement in action against the French.
Any info on his career after 1798 would be welcome.

Re: Hiltrude Alsace- Fastrada- Charlemagne Hugh de Tours

karenewinn — 2011-01-21 10:52:26Z

I'd forgot all about this, til you kindly reminded me- thanks! I'd given this part up as the one that got away. Good luck!

Re: Hiltrude Alsace- Fastrada- Charlemagne Hugh de Tours

skinnerd50 — 2011-01-21 04:59:55Z

I know what you mean. I am new to this site, and as I am getting to this section I somehow have Charlemagne in several places in my tree now, and when I get time I have to sort it all out. I will have to take time and collabrate all the information, and see what is right. I am about to just settle the fact that we all came from Adam and go about my life!

The Capet family of Pittsburgh and Asylum PA

photo66666 — 2010-10-30 19:12:29Z

I am looking for any Capet family members who were extracted from Versailles France around 1793 and place in the Pittsburgh and/or Asylum areas of Pennsylvania with the help of Albert Gallatin and Thomas Jefferson.

It is my understanding that Father Demetrius Augustine Gallitzin would have been their priest. Father Gallitzin was the assistant to Bishop John Carroll who was the Bishop of Baltimore MD.

They may have also joined other Capet family members who were already in the area. These Capet family members would have been with General Lafayette at the Battle of Yorktown. They may have also joined General Daniel Morgan at the Battle of Saratoga.

Re: DeMoss, Dumas, or Damas (Barons and Counts)

jesserademacher — 2010-10-24 03:04:10Z

I'm interested to know more about the DeMoss/Dumas family. I'm stuck tracing back my family line and I'd like to know more. Specifically, I'm stuck on Charles Allen DeMoss. Can you help me find his parents?

Re: de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe

leachrobynl — 2010-10-02 12:11:03Z

I may be able to help re the miniature. My 87 yr old mother said that she saw it 2- 3 years ago during a visit to a distant relative.
My mother comes from the Wilbraham & Caroline Liardet line via their son Frank.
I remember seeing a necklace that was meant to have been given to Perpetue at the home of some Liardets who lived in Mildura in about 1960.
I also was lucky to find original photos of Caroline, Wilbraham and others hidden between the leaves of an album purported to having belonged to Leonora. Enough to send tingles down my spine - it was as though they had been waiting to be found! This was during a visit to Ballam Park, the house that Wilbraham helped build in Frankston.

It's certainly an interesting family line my mother's christian name is Evelyn - a family to be proud of.

Re: de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe

janeperkins2219 — 2010-08-07 09:02:07Z

Hello. My name is Mrs Jane Perkins, i live in Cardiff Uk. I was born to Pamela Liardet in Shrewsbury Uk 4.11.50. I understand my ancestors may be similar to yours and i would welcome any news about the Austrian side of the family. My ancestor was Jean Liardet who came to London in 1789, having married Maria von Kuchl of Salzburg.
Thankyou so much, i am very interested in my family history.

Re: Jennette

privyet — 2010-08-03 22:18:06Z

Being Protestant and of the Aristocracy is a somewhat unusual combinatiion.

I presume that you family are now American ? If so, perhaps you should contact the Huguenot Society in that country ? http://huguenotsocietyofamerica.org/

What primary or secondary evidence do you already have which indicates that your ancestors were of the aristocracy. You may require more information before contacting the various societies in France.

A reasonable knowledge of the French language would also be helpful in your enquries.

Jennette

Kaylejenn — 2010-08-03 19:28:04Z

Hi, my ancestors were french aristocracy in the 1700's, the surname is jennette. All i know is that they were hugenauts. Please contact me if you have any info

Jennette

Kaylejenn — 2010-08-03 19:27:54Z

Hi, my ancestors were french aristocracy in the 1700's, the surname is jennette. All i know is that they were hugenauts. Please contact me if you have any info

Re: de Paul de Lamanon d'Albe

michaelcharlesauty — 2010-02-23 22:53:26Z

keen to sight your D'Albe collection, Perpetue is my g-gmotherX5, if you are able to share it, have an interest in the sixteenth century Duc D'Alva, the butcher of Zeeland as he was known; interesting chap who spent much of his military career being overlooked by Philip V/VI? and sent to do all the ugly jobs like crushing, or trying to, the dutch rebels. wondering if he's connected?

Re: The Countess, A 200 year old Family Mystery

BarriosdeLeon — 2010-02-04 03:34:25Z

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