General - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Re: Is direct relation to kings of England common?

calrivethed — 2013-04-01 00:11:26Z

This! is why I do not site or source ancestry trees anymore, as I did 10 years ago when I discovered this "easy to use online genealogy source". I have learned better since, and have wiped any trace, and continue to do so if found, of AWT, one world tree, ancestry personal trees, etc. I have gone so far as to remove ABGI and Millenium File (LDS Library) sourced persons. Ancestry is my place for census and other collections, and hints to other avenues, but not as a direct source. If I cannot find a BMD, govenment/parish doc, military record, or at least something from a well known, credible and published worked, it will remained unsourced in my file, which makes that ID a phantom to be looked at, at another time.

Re: Is direct relation to kings of England common?

cjlacour — 2013-03-17 02:00:55Z

I'm definitely a noob when it comes to genealogy, but I'm comfortable with the taking material from Weiss, Faris, Richardson, Roberts, CP, etc, and putting it into my tree and citing it.

Is it all ironclad? Probably not, but I like it a lot better than just taking hints from member trees.....

I need a list of the ladies-in-waiting of Wilhemine, queen consort of the Netherlands

SarahSH85 — 2013-03-10 05:00:40Z

Queen Wilhemine (1774-1837), according to family tradition, had a lady-in-waiting who was my ancestor. I have searched thoroghly for a long time, and I can't find the names of all of Wilhemine's ladies-in-waiting. If someone can give me a list of her ladies-in-waiting, I would be extremely grateful and thrilled! Any names would be helpful!

I need a list of the ladies-in-waiting of Wilhemine, queen consort of the Netherlands

SarahSH85 — 2013-03-10 05:00:29Z

The GEORGE Side ?

pennygeorgeweeks — 2013-02-25 21:49:54Z

I am looking for the GEORGE side of DLG . My g-grandfather was Thomas L GEORGE(1847-1921) from Wales came to the US married a STONEROAD but it has been maintained that DLG was a close relative, some say cousin but others say closer , looking at pics it maybe closer. Thomas was raised by grandparents , don't know why. I have contacted DLG Society in the past with no results. anyone have any clue to DLG's Fathers' side ? thanks

Re: David Lloyd George

patrickdeegan99 — 2012-12-07 20:49:27Z

I too have connections to David Lloyd George. My grandmother Rachel was born at the Vale of Cllewyds (spelling) Lithgow, New South Wales Australia. Mining town. She married Thomas Deegan. Her mother was Elizabeth Lloyd George married to Matthew Morgan. I presume she would have been born in the 1880's. Matthew emmigrated to South Australia.

Re: Descended from Royalty.......

photo66666 — 2012-12-04 11:28:31Z

This is not as hard as you think and might be as common as water. There was a little known Catholic Priest running around a town named Gallitzin PA and his name was Father Gallitzin. He was a Russian Prince of some sort with lots of relatives living in Western PA and in Pittsburgh.

Let me tell you, it's a curse.

You need to see the play "Our Americans Cousins". It played at Fords Theater the night of April 14 1865.

Descended from Royalty.......

fritz1255 — 2012-12-01 14:24:30Z

I have two branches of my family that have nearly identical stories about being descended from royalty. The story goes like this: The daughter of the Earl or other member of nobility fell in love with a commoner, they married against the family's wishes, and she was disinherited as a result. The couple ended up emigrating to the US to escape the noteriety. To me, both stories sound fishy - the "disinherited" story conveniently explains why the woman has no money from or contact with her "royal" family, and the fact that they emigrated to the US would have made the story nearly impossible to cross-check in those days (early 19th century). I guess I'm skeptical partly because I have debunked at least one other family story from yet another branch concerning a prominent memorial that one of my ancestors claimed to have constructed.

One of my distant relatives did research the "royalty" story from his branch of the family, and concluded that she (my g-g-g-grandmother) could not have been descended from who she said she was, but may have been related to other royalty, but can't be confirmed

Anybody else have this type of story handed down through the generations? Maybe some day when we are all in a huge DNA database, all these questions will be easily answered, but not today!

Re: BULGARIAN NOBILITY,1930'S-1940'S,KING'S NAME????

Mohnbauer — 2012-11-28 19:05:47Z

uups, a little "big" mistake,
deleted the ( ) to fast in a hurry ;-)
you are right - it´s the time of his life.

Re: BULGARIAN NOBILITY,1930'S-1940'S,KING'S NAME????

halpark — 2012-11-28 14:04:41Z

Boris III was not Tsar of Bulgaria from 1894 - August 1943. He was BORN in 1894, he came to the throne on the abdication of his father during WW1 - c. 1918-19.

Re: Caterina von Taxis m. which Antonius von Taxis

Mohnbauer — 2012-11-24 20:23:35Z

Postgeschichtliche Einordnung/ Postal History Classification

Janetto de Tassis was since 1490 Courier champion under King Maximilian I and co-founder of Horse Post of the Holy Roman Empire. Successor in this position from 1506 was his nephew Johann Baptista von Taxis. Both master courier workers normally members of their own tribe as couriers. Seraphin de Tassis was first mentioned in 1507 in the postal service of Maximilian. After 1513 Johann Baptista drew back from the line of the imperial courier service in order to take on tasks in Brussels. Then the brothers knew it Seraphin, Bartholomew and Jeremiah (Jerome), and a relative, named Christopher and his son Anton the imperial courier. These five persons received in 1514 by Maximilian I the simple nobility. They justified except Jeremiah, who was postmaster from 1520 to 1565 in Enzweihingen, the Augsburg postmaster dynasty.

The first Augsburger line was founded by(Johann) Anton of Taxis since 1522. He was the sole postmaster in Augsburg and married three times, including with Janettos only child, Catherine of Taxis. Anton's sons John, Ambrose and Christopher of Taxis working in the postal service of King Ferdinand I. They left no male heirs entitled to inherit, and so died from this line. The second line of Augsburg was founded by brothers Seraphin I and Bartholomew.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphin_I._von_Taxis#Postgesch...

another line >>> Johann Baptista of Taxis, nephew of Janetto de Tassis:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Baptista_von_Taxis
his children: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Baptista_von_Taxis#Nachk...

Re: BULGARIAN NOBILITY,1930'S-1940'S,KING'S NAME????

Mohnbauer — 2012-11-24 19:39:48Z

situation at stated time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_III_of_Bulgaria#World_War...

Boris III of Bulgaria
Tsar of Bulgaria from 30 January 1894 – 28 August 1943:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_III_of_Bulgaria#World_War...

old pictures: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Prince_Kyril_of_B...
brothers Boris III and Kyrill:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Boris_III_und_Kyrill....
his brother Prince Kiril of Bulgaria:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Kiril_of_Bulgaria

Re: Need help researching a "Dame" title

Mohnbauer — 2012-11-24 18:48:53Z

Dame (von französisch dame ‚Herrin‘, aus lateinisch domina ‚Hausherrin‘) bezeichnet höflich eine Frau

Dame (Ritterwürde), Adelstitel
__________________________________

Lady (of french lady , mistress ', from the Latin dominatrix
, mistress') refers polite to a woman

lady (knighthood), titles of nobility

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame_%28title%29

Re: descendant of sophia of hanover

Mohnbauer — 2012-11-24 18:39:07Z

Sophie von Hannover:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_von_der_Pfalz
her children: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_von_der_Pfalz#Kinder_aus...

Sophie Charlotte von Hannover:
her children
Friedrich August (* 6. Oktober 1685; † 31. Januar 1686 )
Friedrich Wilhelm I. (* 14. August 1688 ; † 31. Mai 1740)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Charlotte_von_Hannover#K....

Friedrich Wilhelm I. (* 14. August 1688 ; † 31. Mai 1740) had 14 children:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Wilhelm_I._%28Preu%C3...

Re: How can there be so much royalty?

Mohnbauer — 2012-11-24 18:11:05Z

photo66666
"Actually there is some chatter that Marie Antonette's oungest son did NOT die in jail but rather was saved by Albert Gallatin and place in the care of Father Prince Gallitzin in a super secret hightly funded US operation ordered by Thomas Jefferson."

Marie Antionette´s children:
Marie Thérèse Charlotte (* 19. Dezember 1778; † 19. Oktober 1851) ∞ Louis-Antoine de Bourbon, duc d’Angoulême (* 6. August 1775; † 3. Juni 1844)
Fehlgeburt/Miscarriage (1780)
Louis Joseph Xavier François (* 22. Oktober 1781; † 4. Juni 1789)
Fehlgeburt/Miscarriage (1783)
Louis Charles (* 27. März 1785; † 8. Juni 1795)
Sophie Helene Beatrice (* 9. Juli 1786; † 18. Juni 1787)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Antoinette

Louis Charles de Bourbon, dauphin de Viennois
for Antoinettes younger son in Europe another story which shows him in Switzerland not USA:
Marti's paternal grandmother, the second wife of the Forgemaster and longtime Versamer Messmer Martin Bonadurer (1844 - 1879) was a Margaretha Rassel (1815 - 1894) of St.Antönien, a daughter of the acting in Trimmis, where 1834 died schoolmaster Josef Franz Rassel, and this - that sounds pretty incredible - was the son of 1793 during the French Revolution in Paris who died royal couple Louis XVI. and Marie-Antoinette. Her two children, the Dauphin (crown prince) Louis XVII. and his sister, the horrors of the revolutionary period have survived. They were kept under close guard in the notorious Temple Prison caught. The boy is abducted from there by royalists and with all due secrecy to the Grisons, to a secluded place as possible - has been spent - even after St.Antönien. In France it was called later, the crown prince died in prison of tuberculosis. He had just been swapped with any other seriously ill boy. Thus, the French heir lived undetected under the alias Franz Josef rattle St.Antönien and later as a schoolmaster in Trimmis, where he got married and the father of a nine-member group of children.
http://www.bonadurer.ch/koeniglverw_teil%20I_d.html
http://www.bonadurer.ch/ahnentafel_rassel_1_d.html
http://www.bonadurer.ch/koeniglverw_presse_1_d.html

what Wikipedia says:
After the execution of his parents in 1793 was the cobbler Antoine Simon, a Jacobin, instructed him to bring up a "good citizen". After Simon on the same day as Robespierre and other Jacobins 28th July 1794 was also executed on the guillotine was the child lived in the Temple prison on alone on his and died in June 1795 aged ten years. The cause of his early death is not known with certainty, it is suspected tuberculosis.
Ludwigs heart
heart grave of Louis XVII. Saint-Denis
After Louis died, cut the royalist physician Jean-Philippe Pelletan out his heart and preserved it in alcohol. It came in a roundabout way through Austria, Italy and Spain in 1975 in the chapel of Saint-Denis, where it has since been kept in a chamber filled with alcohol crystal urn. In 2000, Belgian and German researchers presented based on genetic comparisons of cardiac DNA with genetic material from another, now living descendants of Maria Theresa, firm that the heart actually Louis XVII. belonged. The heart was eighth after a long odyssey on June 2004 buried in the Basilica of Saint-Denis.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Charles_de_Bourbon,_dauph...
his sister, oldest daughter of Marie Antoinette - about her person and life also different stories:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se_Charlot...
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se_Charlot...

Re: How can there be so much royalty?

Mohnbauer — 2012-11-24 17:07:58Z

photo66666
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_Augustine_Gallitzin

Tudor Dynasty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_dynasty#Henry_VIII
his daughter Elizabeth was the fifth and last monarch of the Tudor dynasty!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_I

the real line of Prince Harry:
Victoria is the longest-reigning British monarch and the longest-reigning queen regnant in world history; she reigned for a total of 63 years, seven months and two days. She was the last monarch of Britain from the House of Hanover. Her son and heir Edward VII belonged to her husband's House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
House Hanover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hanover
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_of_the_United_Kingdom
House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (since 1917 House Windsor): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Windsor

Re: Illegitimate issue of the English King (from the Tudors to the Stuartst)

tuck91270 — 2012-11-17 01:01:31Z

I am a decendant of Henry VII

Re: Is direct relation to kings of England common?

hrmacconnell — 2012-11-07 13:19:52Z

It's a fascinating topic.

The answer is yes, but not in the way you'd hope. Ewd76 was quite correct when he/she said that ultimately, every living person of European extraction is a descendant of Charlemagne. It's impossible to NOT be descended from him and therefore be related to many other royal families all over Europe.

However, I have found that there are MANY false trails on Ancestry.com. Some people may have made innocent mistakes, but I suspect that many have invented links. Working on my own tree, tracing back through pilgrim settlers in New England, I have found at least 4 false lines that tracked back to fantastical pedigrees.

The problem is, once you go through the line generation for generation, checking against an independent source, you swiftly find that at some point, your ancestor was grafted onto a royal parent.

Why do they do this? I don't know. No life losers, I guess. But they're ruining this site.

Re: Bogus nonsense

Aldo10 — 2012-09-17 22:06:48Z

There is no known connection, except bogus nonsense.

Re: Prima Nocta and Genealogy

michaelbartley46 — 2012-09-10 19:00:40Z

There is absolutely no historical evidence that this ever took place, certainly not in Britain or western Europe. Its just a myth propagated by Hollywood.

Re: Judah to Stewart!!!

mgreen1691 — 2012-09-06 22:16:35Z

Is ALAN OF LOCHABER also known as Alan FitzFlaald? I was just taking a look at your lines. My family descend from Judah as well. My line is several times descent from the Green family plus I have other lines descending from Judah. I can trace the Green family to Troy through Marcomir II of what would be later considered the Sicambri. If Alan of Lochaber is also known as Alan FitzFlaald your missing a substantial amount of generations.

regards, Mark Alan Green

Prima Nocta and Genealogy

lance_e_ware — 2012-08-05 15:18:21Z

I've been reading Mark Twain's novel "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", which alludes to the custom of droit du seigneur or jus primae noctis (prima nocta), the privilege of the king or lord to sleep with any bride in his realm on her wedding night. I've also seen this portrayed in the movie "Braveheart". I doubt we can know how widespread this practice actually was or how often it resulted in consummation. But it got me thinking that perhaps some "commoner" lines, without realizing it, in fact have royal or noble blood in them.

Re: Marquis Louis Modeste Raison de la Geneste

LYates36 — 2012-07-17 21:22:53Z

I am a descendent of Louis Modeste Raison, the story I have is from my cousin Charles Nutter.( William Webb Nutter is my ggrandfather, and he married Arematha Mavity, daughter of William Mavity and Marie Antionette Raisin,she is the daughter of Louis and Arametha Young) with the help of his nanny, he escaped and fled to New Orleans, following his 2 sisters, he was 14 years old at the time, and had to fend for himself, he worked his way up the Mississippi River to Greenup Kentucky, where he went to work for John Young, and late married his daughter. I found it a very interesting story, and hope it is true. Charles usually researched his fact very close. He came here in 1766.

Re: Marquis Louis Modeste Raison de la Geneste

LYates36 — 2012-07-17 21:22:50Z

CSA General JEB Stuart

photo66666 — 2012-07-15 15:16:19Z

So why is General Stuart not a gateway connection to the Stuart Kings of Scotland as CSA Col John Esten Cooke writes about in his book The Life of Alexander Spotswood Dandridge?

Re: david lloyd george

Champlain9 — 2012-07-14 12:06:16Z

Paula
Found this as wellon the Ancstry census:

1891 Wales Census about David Lloyd George
Name: David Lloyd George
[David Lloyd Lloyd George]
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margaret Lloyd George
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester

Civil parish: Criccieth
Ecclesiastical parish: Criccieth
Town: Criccieth
County/Island: Caernarvonshire
Country: Wales

Street Address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image

Registration district: Pwllheli
Sub-registration district: Criccieth
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4650
Folio: 12
Page Number: 17
Household Members:
Name Age
David Lloyd George 28
Margaret Lloyd George 26
Richard Lloyd George 2
Mair Eiluneal Lloyd George 8/12
Lewis D Roberts 20
Margaret Griffiths 22

British Prime Minister David Lloyd George's paternal grandparents were David George (1782-1828) and Mary.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/george/messages/3950.html

The National library of Wales may be able to help you with the grandparents names?

http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=2

Janice

Ancestry Admin

Re: david lloyd george

Champlain9 — 2012-07-14 11:54:42Z

Elizabeth Lloyd
Birth 1829 in Llanystymdwy, Caernarvonshire, Wales

I have found this as well:

http://minam-a.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/treaty-of-versailles-d...

and this:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/345191/David-Lloyd...

Her name was Margaret Owen.

Janice

Ancestry Admin

Re: Another side to this story

photo66666 — 2012-07-09 21:33:38Z

My work is on CSA General JEB Stuart, Prince Charles Edward Stuart and his "to be" wife Agatha Murphy and King James Stuart. The connection on this group only could be three or four generations and be as close as the US Civil War.

Re: Another side to this story

calrivethed — 2012-07-09 21:28:00Z

if that was including me (...it might only be several generations and not 40 as many people think.), I just used decade based generations (10, 20, 30, 40) for generalized calculations to illustrate the possibilities :))

But yes, Gateway ancestors can be really close, one of my ancestors arrived in British America by 1651, 11 Generations ago (actual not "30-year" generations).

Another side to this story

photo66666 — 2012-07-04 21:42:51Z

Take James Fenimore Coopers friend Ned Myers. If we can believe James Fenimore Copper, Ned Myers was the Godson of Prince Edward who was Queen Victoria's father.

The on other writings, James Fenimore Cooper talks about Hunter Tim Murphy, a related of Agatha Murphy the daughter of King Louis XV.

I think CSA Col John Esten Cooke states it best in doing a story on Alexander Spotswood Dandridge. The Spotswood family was a gateway family directly connected to King James who met Pocahontas in the early 1600's.

So your collections are correct but the many gateway families in the US are wild cards for a more direct connection and it might only be several generations and not 40 as many people think.

Re: Is direct relation to kings of England common?

calrivethed — 2012-07-03 01:38:45Z

Just some numbers (mind you, I am no statistician, just using basic math and excel):

**Basing a Generation on 30 Years
**starting point is 1970, with parents from 1940, etc

In a perfect tree-

10 Generations (300 years) back = 1,024 ancestors at the 1670ce mark

20 Generations (600 years) back = 1,048,576 ancestors at the 1370ce mark

30 Generations (900 years) back = 1,073,741,824 ancestors at the 1070ce mark

40 Generations (1200 years) back = 1,099,511,627,776 ancestors at the 770ce mark

Now factor in an arbitrary amount of Pedigree Collapse (really common amongst royal/noble families, British American Colonies, etc. A quick article here: http://www.familyforest.com/captainslog/41.html about collapsing trees, or Google it)

**Pedigree Collapses every 5th Generation (illustrative, you tree WILL vary).

10 Generations (300 years) back = 512 ancestors at the 1670ce mark

20 Generations (600 years) back = 131,072 ancestors at the 1370ce mark

30 Generations (900 years) back = 33,554,432 ancestors at the 1070ce mark

40 Generations (1200 years) back = 8,589,934,592 ancestors at the 770ce mark

So by the time of Charlemagne, your ancestors would comprise 8.5+ billion people
Put this into Perspective, World Population hit the estimated 1 billion mark in 1804
(some say there may have been as many as 200-250million people on the planet by 800ce).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates

All in all, numbers are just numbers, and history is history. It is interesting to trace your roots, in historical context, and personally has led me to investigate more Geo-Political shifts in our history (led me to understand why there native German speakers claiming France and Russia as birth places on Census sheets, for example). We are related if you go far enough back, and a good percentage of us here in the USA with European ancestors, are related to the "Royals/Nobles". NO big claim to fame there, but you know what, it sure is fun and enlightening to trace those paths. Also to consider, it was not just indentured servants and those seeking religious freedoms that settles here in North America. Minor nobles and land owners, looking for more or trying to escape Europe's problems at any given time in history. So a lot of royal/noble "connected" blood settled here. But that is another diatribe in itself.

I hope the "numbers" help put into perspective, the "royal connection" probabilities of Americans, and Euro descendants across the world.

Re: James IV-Cameron connection

laodadakota — 2012-05-26 15:23:51Z

Sorry my reply is 12 years later...just saw this. I was going to write the same message. James IV had an illegitimate daughter named Margaret Stewart. Peggy Cameron's grandmother may have been Margaret Stewart. They were born around the same time but different lineages. Coincidence? Maybe someone made a mistake in the McCurdy history 200 years ago?
Can anyone else help?
Hopefully not 12 years from now (:-))

Marie Louisa Murphy

photo66666 — 2012-05-15 20:26:42Z

I am trying to trace the family of Marie Louisa Murphy from a painting of her in Paris done by Francois Boucher to Aslyum PA in Bradford County by the help of Benjamin Franklin.

She was the Mistress of King Louis XV. Aslyum PA was known as the Paris of the Wilderness. Records are very clear that at least some French Royal Family members made it to Aslyum PA during the French Revolution.

I believe there is some connection to Hunter Tim Murphy and General Lafayette at the Battle of Saratoga.

Some records suggest Marie Murphy was related to the Murphy and Smithwick Beer making families of Ireland. Both beers are still being made today although they are mostly sold in Canada.

Downloading royal family gedcoms?

3FcGk5Yl — 2012-05-08 15:16:24Z

Is there any way to DL royal family gedcoms? I can see other members trees but building that up step by step for a large number of generations would be very time consuming and tedious.
Thanks

Re: Ferdinand Haevers

DawnKelm — 2012-05-06 19:01:40Z

Hi Kisha,
Some new information for you. Ferdinand Haevers had an illegitimate son in 1891 with Flora Villers. His name was Fred (Ferdinand). Flora was the widwow of Joseph Bodart. They had 2 children, Louis and Lena Bodart. She married 2nd Charles Dellis in Kewaunee Co, WI. At the time of her marriage to Charles she left her son Fred with his grandparents Frank and Rosalie Villers in Tonet, WI on their farm where he had been living. She never saw Fred again as tragedy stuck the Dellis family. Fred met his father Ferdinand shortly before Ferdinand died. Ferdinand's pension from the Civil War went to Flora to support Fred. Does anyone on your side of the family know about this? Fred raised his family in the Algoma, WI area.

Please email me at dwk@netnet.net

Descendants of Drue de Montacute

minterseiler1954 — 2012-04-29 00:36:40Z

I was looking through some of my older dated family history paperwork for my Dad's family name Minter. I came across some info regarding descendants of Drue de Montacute. It's kinda of difficult to understand but very interesting.Far down the list is my grand-father Clint Minter- born about 1888 in KY. Any ideas how to help me decipher it or what it all means?
Thanks, Patty Seiler (Minter)

Re: Inter-class marriage/relationships

chrisgibbs2009 — 2012-04-02 05:55:32Z

That's brilliant, thank you. I guessed that must be something to do with it but that explains it excellently, many thanks. Chris.

Re: Inter-class marriage/relationships

jayswith — 2012-04-01 17:19:40Z

In fact, that is almost the norm. The cause is primogeniture, the eldest son inheriting his father's lands and titles. Second sons and younger children often did not inherit and as such were generally not considered to be of the same status as the eldest son. Some might be provided advantageous marriages, some entered the church, some entered the military while others fared as best they could. Cadet branches of a family frequently became landed gentry or middle class, and over time their descendants became… us. The laws of primogeniture insured only one family branch would prosper. Jay

Re: How do you trace possible royalty?

a2buddha — 2012-03-22 17:03:08Z

If you have an idea of the country, I recommend you look in armorials of the time, which often contain chapters on pedigree as well. Many of the armorials focus on nobility/royalty.

It can be time consuming reading through them online or downloading and browsing them, but well worth it if you find what you're looking for. I usually begin by going to the index in the back of the book and looking for the surname, then checking any area where it appears.

And now...if you're ready...begin reading:

http://www.heraldry-online.org.uk/Archivebookslinks.htm

How do you trace possible royalty?

cassiecalypso — 2012-03-22 16:06:13Z

I'm researching one of my ancestors, who we really don't know much about. Based on what we have found, however, we have reason to believe that she may have been royalty, or closely related to it. I'd like to find some solid proof that she was or was not royalty, but I'm not sure how to do this. Any tips?

Inter-class marriage/relationships

chrisgibbs2009 — 2012-03-19 21:46:46Z

Am wondering if any one can help me: I have recently traced a particular branch back in my tree, which stems from knights at one end, to fisherfolk/agricultural folk at the modern end. The problem I have is that all the data seems correct, however I am un certain as to how it could have ended up 'dropping' through the classes over time? At some point, I guess somebody must have either married 'beneath' themselves or squandered a fortune, or some such like. My question is, is this possible over time and is it plausible to be descended from knights and working class ancestors in a single family line? Any help on this would be VERY much appreciated!

Thanks,

Chris

Re: Casto

sunshineinmi — 2012-03-18 15:43:34Z

Hi. I'm not sure of any family history but I found a old family bible with some names and also a couple obits from 1925 with the last name casteloe.

Abbreviations Siebmacher's Wappenbuch

a2buddha — 2012-03-18 13:34:48Z

I found a bourgeois device from Wurttemburg for my family surname. While I've not yet proven in any way, shape or form that I link to it, I was in the mood to give it some color. However, the abbreviations in Siebmacher's Wappenbuch are a bit challenging. Here's what I've come up with, and I'd like a sanity check from anyone versed in heraldry:

The original
Wappen: Innerhalb # und g. gestückter Einfassung, in S. ein b Balken, oben und unten ein s. Stern ! Der Balken selbst mit s. Pfeil belegt. -- Auf dem Helm ein offener Flug in Farben und Figuren des Schildes, die Schwingen abwechselnd g. und #. -- Decken: b. und s.

Tricky Old German translations:
gestückter = zusammengesetzter = composite
Balken = fesse
Decken = Mantling

Which gives me:
Within {#} and {g.} composite border, in {S.} a {b} fesse [an ordinary consisting of a broad horizontal band across a shield] above and below a {s.} star! The fesse itself overlaid with a {s.} arrow -- On the helm, an open crest in the colors and figures of the shield, the flourishes alternating {g.} and {#.} -- Mantling: {b.} and {s.}

Looking at the picture, I come up with the following for the abbreviations:
# = black
g. = gold (based upon the coronet having the same dotted pattern as the composite border)
S. = shield?
b = brown
s. = silver
b. = blue (differentiating from b without a period following)

So I get this:
"Within black and gold composite border, in Shield a brown fesse, above and below a silver star! The fesse itself overlaid with a silver arrow -- On the helm, an open crest in the colors and figures of the shield, the flourishes alternating gold and black -- Mantling: blue and silver."

The first rule of heraldry is the rule of tincture: metal must never be placed upon metal, nor colour upon colour, for the sake of contrast, so I interpreted the capital S. to mean "Shield/Field" and not "silver." The fesse does not violate the colour upon colour rule because it is a "proper" (holds its natural color). Looking at the colors used, and the rules, I made an assumption that the field would be blue.

Phew. That was a lot of thinking for a Saturday. Anyone want to shoot some holes in it? Thanks! :D

Re: Count Fulk of Anjou

jayswith — 2012-03-17 22:51:29Z

Sure its entirely possible. You need to verify each connection and each source citations to be absolutely certain. But from the Ralph de Neville I mentioned, the line back to the Plantagenets, to the counts of Anjou, and numerous other ancestors are well proved. So only the line from his son or daughter to you (excluding those already researched) would be the only connections to verify. You may be looking at as few as 7-10 generations to check. If you'd like to post the line from Ralph de Neville, 1st Earl of Westmoreland down to your earliest proved ancestor in this line I'll take a look and see how many are already in my database. Jay

Re: Count Fulk of Anjou

tabodawg — 2012-03-17 06:34:51Z

Is it possible that all these Ralph and well all them back thru longshanks to fulk and further it says there my grandfathers ,,is this possible..?

Re: Count Fulk of Anjou

tabodawg — 2012-03-17 05:38:17Z

I wish i could be sure its the first time this has happened ,, it says that fulk and Lackland and all them are my grandfathers .. all of them about 35 generations of grandfathers ,, and im from Missouri .. is this a glitch .. it seems not . rachel nevill s daughter was johanna ashford and she married our thomas gash jr this makes all those plantagenents my grandfathers ,, ancestry says ,, can this be so ,, longshanls is my grandfather ,, wow.. Mark Rein Gash..

Re: Count Fulk of Anjou

jayswith — 2012-03-14 12:50:42Z

There is such a connection. Ralph de Neville, 1st Earl of Westmoreland (c.1364-1425) was married to Joan Beaufort, daughter of John ‘of Gaunt’, Duke of Lancaster. In turn John is a direct descendant of Fulk IV ‘le Rechin’, Count of Anjou and King of Jerusalem. Did you have a specific question regarding any of the connections? Jay

Count Fulk of Anjou

tabodawg — 2012-03-05 18:11:02Z

I think i made a kind of important link ,to this line of ,kings and it comes thru the Neville Barons of Bergannvey.to john of Gaunt on to the French Crusaders back to ,,well id like it checked by any one its been a discovery i thought was exciting ,seems to stretch from 700 to now 2012 February ..Alsace France to , Jerusalem ,,England ,Baltimore,Md ,Kentucky,Ill,,and finally here Missouri.id like Ancestry to see what ive found it says these kings are all my grandfathers ,,about 40 generations. lol.

Re: LOTHIAN/ANCRAM/KERR

halpark — 2012-02-24 10:06:00Z

That explains a lot! At that time "India" was under the control of the East India Company, their records might help.

Re: LOTHIAN/ANCRAM/KERR

railtond — 2012-02-24 07:57:49Z

William Drury Kerr was born a year before the first marriage. This information comes from a private source. An extensive search has been made on the internet and shows little about him and nothing about his mother. No baptism record can be found for him. I imagine that the reson for this is that he was a result of an illicit relationship between his mother of the 6th Earl and he was possibly baptised in his mother's name and later acknowledged by his father.