having title
Replies: 13
Re: having title
| Yvonne (View posts) | Posted: 10 Aug 2005 2:30AM GMT |
Classification: Query
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>I am the 11th great grand child of Antoine De Bourbon, Duke Of Vendome and Jeanne D'Albret, Queen Of Navarre. Antoine's son Jean De Navarre came to america around 1560 give and take a few years. My question is if Jean kept his title and his children kept theres and so on, I was wondering what my title would be. Jean brother is Henry IV. I don't know if that would make any difference. Would anyone know this answer?
I've searched published and Internet genealogical sources (in particular, *Europäische Stammtafeln*, Neue Folge (ed. by Schwennicke), Band II, 1984, and the "Descendants of Robert de France, Comte de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis (Generations VII - IX)" by genealogist Leo van de Pas available at http://worldroots.com/foundation/families/robertdefrance1256... ).
Unfortunately, there isn't any mention of a son named "Jean de Navarre" for Antoine de Bourbon, duc de Vendôme, duc de Bourbon, and roi titulaire (titular king) de Navarre, to give only a few of his titles. It seems doubtful that such a person existed, if only for the fact that Antoine had no claim to the appellation "de Navarre" until after his marriage to Jeanne III (d'Albert), reine de Navarre, in 1548. It would therefore seem that if Antoine had a son named Jean, he would likely be an unknown illegitimate child by an unknown mistress. For what it's worth, none of the sources I've seen mentions any wife for Antoine other than Jeanne, nor do they mention any children (whose family name was "de Bourbon", because the subsequent kings of Navarre were descended patrilineally from the house of Bourbon due to Antoine and Jeanne's marriage) for him other than the five he had by her. Only two of these children survived, though, Henri (who succeeded his mother as Henri III, roi de Navarre and who was later Henri IV, roi de France), and Catherine.
Several kings and princes of France, including their Bourbon-line relatives, fathered children out of wedlock. A certain number of these children were recognized (that is, acknowledged publicly by their fathers). These recognized children were known as "N... [Christian name], bâtard de France" ("bastard of France", if you'll pardon the expression). If they were of the Bourbon line, they were known as "N... [Christian name], bâtard de Bourbon". Some of the children who were subsequently legitimated had a title bestowed upon them. (For information about "Bastard and Illegitimate Lines" in the royal family of France, see http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/roygenea.htm#bastards )
You might want to see if you can find a copy (through purchase or interlibrary loan) of the scholarly work titled *La maison de Bourbon, 1256-2004*, by Patrick Van Kerrebrouck (2004). It contains the genealogy of the Bourbon branch of the royal family of France in both its legitimate and illegitimate lines from Robert de France, comte de Clermont et sire de Bourbon (the founder of the branch).
What is the evidence for a Jean de Navarre coming to America in or about 1560, and in what capacity did he come? A venture to the new world at this time seems rather questionable, as there was relatively little contact between France and what would later become North America. (It is true, that King François I sent Jean-François de la Roque de Roberval to the new world in 1541-1542 with the goal of founding a colony, but nothing permanent was established until after Samuel de Champlain arrived in 1603.)
Now, to your question about Jean and his title. Which title is this? As a presumed illegitimate child of Antoine de Bourbon, Jean would not necessarily have a title that could be inherited by his children. If he did have a title(*), then it would have descended according to the law of primogeniture, that is to his eldest male son, then to that son's son, and so on. (Note that titles rarely descended to female children.) The possibility of your having a claim to a title, therefore, is so remote as to be nil. Relatively few titles from the Middle Ages survive to this day, and those that have tend to be found within other titles (for example, through merger or by reverting to the Crown).
(*) "de Navarre" is not a title, by the way. And Jean, if he really existed, would not have a right of inheritance to his father's titles, because of the bar of illegitimacy. Antoine's eldest surviving legitimate son had that right.
>I am the 11th great grand child of Antoine De Bourbon, Duke Of Vendome and Jeanne D'Albret, Queen Of Navarre. Antoine's son Jean De Navarre came to america around 1560 give and take a few years. My question is if Jean kept his title and his children kept theres and so on, I was wondering what my title would be. Jean brother is Henry IV. I don't know if that would make any difference. Would anyone know this answer?
I've searched published and Internet genealogical sources (in particular, *Europäische Stammtafeln*, Neue Folge (ed. by Schwennicke), Band II, 1984, and the "Descendants of Robert de France, Comte de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis (Generations VII - IX)" by genealogist Leo van de Pas available at http://worldroots.com/foundation/families/robertdefrance1256... ).
Unfortunately, there isn't any mention of a son named "Jean de Navarre" for Antoine de Bourbon, duc de Vendôme, duc de Bourbon, and roi titulaire (titular king) de Navarre, to give only a few of his titles. It seems doubtful that such a person existed, if only for the fact that Antoine had no claim to the appellation "de Navarre" until after his marriage to Jeanne III (d'Albert), reine de Navarre, in 1548. It would therefore seem that if Antoine had a son named Jean, he would likely be an unknown illegitimate child by an unknown mistress. For what it's worth, none of the sources I've seen mentions any wife for Antoine other than Jeanne, nor do they mention any children (whose family name was "de Bourbon", because the subsequent kings of Navarre were descended patrilineally from the house of Bourbon due to Antoine and Jeanne's marriage) for him other than the five he had by her. Only two of these children survived, though, Henri (who succeeded his mother as Henri III, roi de Navarre and who was later Henri IV, roi de France), and Catherine.
Several kings and princes of France, including their Bourbon-line relatives, fathered children out of wedlock. A certain number of these children were recognized (that is, acknowledged publicly by their fathers). These recognized children were known as "N... [Christian name], bâtard de France" ("bastard of France", if you'll pardon the expression). If they were of the Bourbon line, they were known as "N... [Christian name], bâtard de Bourbon". Some of the children who were subsequently legitimated had a title bestowed upon them. (For information about "Bastard and Illegitimate Lines" in the royal family of France, see http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/roygenea.htm#bastards )
You might want to see if you can find a copy (through purchase or interlibrary loan) of the scholarly work titled *La maison de Bourbon, 1256-2004*, by Patrick Van Kerrebrouck (2004). It contains the genealogy of the Bourbon branch of the royal family of France in both its legitimate and illegitimate lines from Robert de France, comte de Clermont et sire de Bourbon (the founder of the branch).
What is the evidence for a Jean de Navarre coming to America in or about 1560, and in what capacity did he come? A venture to the new world at this time seems rather questionable, as there was relatively little contact between France and what would later become North America. (It is true, that King François I sent Jean-François de la Roque de Roberval to the new world in 1541-1542 with the goal of founding a colony, but nothing permanent was established until after Samuel de Champlain arrived in 1603.)
Now, to your question about Jean and his title. Which title is this? As a presumed illegitimate child of Antoine de Bourbon, Jean would not necessarily have a title that could be inherited by his children. If he did have a title(*), then it would have descended according to the law of primogeniture, that is to his eldest male son, then to that son's son, and so on. (Note that titles rarely descended to female children.) The possibility of your having a claim to a title, therefore, is so remote as to be nil. Relatively few titles from the Middle Ages survive to this day, and those that have tend to be found within other titles (for example, through merger or by reverting to the Crown).
(*) "de Navarre" is not a title, by the way. And Jean, if he really existed, would not have a right of inheritance to his father's titles, because of the bar of illegitimacy. Antoine's eldest surviving legitimate son had that right.